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Puzzle Boxes

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What is the ruling on puzzle boxes? I've seen a couple in game but don't see them listed as a tinkering item, or really see them listed much anywhere. If they're treated like any mundane boxes where you can bring in without any preproduction skills then are there any limitations on them?

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My UNDERSTANDING is that a puzzle box doesn't need to be numbered/tinkered. It's a mundane box.  Chests don't need to be numbered.   MAGIC chests need numbers.  Chests with inherent locks don't need numbers.  Chests that have locks INSTALLED (like padlocks) don't need numbers, but the padlocks need to be tinkered.

If you are ADDING to the box to make it secure - it needs a number.

If it's INHERENT or BUILT IN (like a puzzle box) - it doesn't.

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Hi there,

I'm Dan, the KoN Rules Marshal.

We don't currently have a rule expressly forbidding them, but since they basically break the game's rules right now, I would suggest you not bring one in.

Our "locks" are either fairly easy to lockpick "luggage locks", or a spell called "magic lock".  The idea of a box you can't get into, and also can't steal, since it's not worth anything to game (no item number, no coin value, not currency, not consumable) sounds like it's breaking the spirit of the game.

If there's enough interest, we can totally include rules about puzzle boxes, but it's not going to be an easy way to protect your things.

respectfully,

-Dan

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I really like puzzle boxes and would love to still see them in game. They're a lot of fun but yeah ultimately aren't going to stop anyone. In order to avoid breaking the spirit of the game, could they be ruled as tinkering items? It makes sense that someone more skilled would need to craft them as essentially they sort of act as a lock?

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If they are going to break the spirit of the rules, I suggest you do create a rule, cause without one in the rule book, people might already have been bringing them in.

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I have a small one and showed it to a bunch of people before I actually brought it into game and no one had any comments. I don't get how it breaks the games rules?  I've seen other peoples puzzle boxes and I've been able to open them with minimal fussing.  It's kind of like picking locks - if you know how to open them, it's pretty easy to do. If you don't have an idea, then it is wicked secure. It's essentially a different kind of lock.

 

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14 hours ago, MistressPounce said:

I have a small one and showed it to a bunch of people before I actually brought it into game and no one had any comments. I don't get how it breaks the games rules?  I've seen other peoples puzzle boxes and I've been able to open them with minimal fussing.  It's kind of like picking locks - if you know how to open them, it's pretty easy to do. If you don't have an idea, then it is wicked secure. It's essentially a different kind of lock.

 

I believe the concern is someone being intentionally underhanded by putting a valuable stealable in game item inside of particularly difficult to open puzzle box.  It doesn't break a specific rule, rather it circumvents the ways the system allows you to protect stuff.  The locks that are allowed to exist in the system, if you can pick one you can probably pick them all.  A puzzle box has no universal solution and thus could potentially be used underhandedly.  There are also mechanics in the system to magically open locked items (and thus they should have keys attached to them for that use) but no such mechanics for puzzle boxes.

Note Dan didn't say never, he just said he'd like to address them in some way first.

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23 hours ago, MistressPounce said:

I have a small one and showed it to a bunch of people before I actually brought it into game and no one had any comments. I don't get how it breaks the games rules?  I've seen other peoples puzzle boxes and I've been able to open them with minimal fussing.  It's kind of like picking locks - if you know how to open them, it's pretty easy to do. If you don't have an idea, then it is wicked secure. It's essentially a different kind of lock.

 

The issue is that, since it's not numbered, it can't be stolen. A person wishing to break into one has to stand right there where you left it and try. He can't take it and puzzle it out over his campfire later for four hours. 

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1 hour ago, hivemind said:

The issue is that, since it's not numbered, it can't be stolen. A person wishing to break into one has to stand right there where you left it and try. He can't take it and puzzle it out over his campfire later for four hours. 

Numbering them by giving them a database entry with a coin value might be the way to go if we do this. The owner's name can be entered as part of the lookup info. Yes it could be stolen, but just like our weapon props if you want to keep the item you need to make an arrangement after the event for the prop to be returned. Trust your fellow players not to metagame, that's how we do it here.

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Or make them a tinkering item.

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Couple things:

  • I take it 'explosive charges' won't be effective on these since they are generally a more complex lock and there is really no way to simply open it without having the owner or something that readily knows how to open it, opens it.
  • Even though the tinkering items are numbered, they are not lootable (with the exception of the alchemist's lab) according to the wiki. Having it be able to be stolen might sound good for more time to solve but basically wraps the loot in a nice gift box for the looter. You're not gonna see these being used if a player can simply steal the whole container and walk off.

It's a bit of a grey area all in all.

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If they can't be stolen, it's pretty close to cheating in my eyes. At the very least an abuse of game mechanics. I'd rather not see them in game at all, than see abuses.

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36 minutes ago, hivemind said:

If they can't be stolen, it's pretty close to cheating in my eyes. At the very least an abuse of game mechanics. I'd rather not see them in game at all, than see abuses.

How is it different than putting items in a locked chest though? I can't take an un-numbered chest, even if I think there are numbered items inside it.  And only skill will let me pick the lock.  Comparatively, puzzle boxes are usually a lot smaller and can't store as much as a locked chest. 

I've played with enough puzzle boxes that I have a general knowledge/skill to get them open with minimal fussing.  It's actually easier for me to crack puzzle boxes than pick locks.

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Explosive Charge opens a locked box in an instant. A skilled lockpicker can open a lock faster than an Explosive Charge. 

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I'm not trying to be obtuse. I don't see a huge difference between a puzzle box and a locked* chest.  Neither can be stolen because they are not numbered. And both can be “hacked”.  A skilled lock pick will get through a luggage lock quickly.  Someone skilled with puzzle boxes will get through simple boxes quickly.  Puzzle boxes tend to be smaller than chests, limiting what can be put in them. (The one I have can fit a couple pieces of jewelry at most - a deck of cards would be too big).  An explosive charge on a puzzle box would likely destroy what is IN the box too (like I said, they’re usually pretty small).

On ‎5‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 8:40 AM, hivemind said:

The issue is that, since it's not numbered, it can't be stolen. A person wishing to break into one has to stand right there where you left it and try. He can't take it and puzzle it out over his campfire later for four hours. 

That's no different than attempting to pick an inherent lock.  I was told the footlockers that I have DON'T need numbers because the locks are built right into the chest. If I wanted to add a lock, it'd need to be tinkered and would get a number. If you want to get into my footlocker, you're going to have to stand there and pick the lock right there.  Even a tinkered lock results in a number on the lock, not the chest - no one should be taking off with the chest.   A thief will either have to get into chests (puzzle box or chest) quickly, or get caught.

If the issue is truly just that an explosive charge won't work to open a puzzle box, I'd consider that in balance to the fact that puzzle boxes are small. Charges would destroy what's inside.

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So as long as I don't keep anything lootable in the box it is fine yes? So like, I could keep extra gems and adhesive in one for emergencies if I loose a gem on my face (for my terran) and it's all cool and dandy right? 

A few tinkering items can be stolen, not just the lab. 

With the spirit of the game in mind, if we were to make a puzzle box a numbered item similar to that of a lock, they would have to pass a "picking" test just as any locks have to at sign in for approval. Even without them being numbered this could inherently be the case. Maybe with a colored mark other than a number placed underside the box to indicate that it is in fact approved as a puzzle box lock. 

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