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ThatGuy

[Nature] Ley Lines

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I have seen that Necromancer pile. It's not one you want to witness. Ever.

 

I would add my number to the pile, but I'm just a Nekkofancer-in-training, which I'm told, does not count.

 

And, to try to keep from derailing the thread too far...

 

What about making ley lines for two people? Only stipulation is, if you take someone who also has ley lines, their 'home base' is reset to zero and has to be reset. This is to prevent "LF Port to Shatt" syndrome.

 

But, then again, each tree has their own strengths and weaknesses. Compulsion is ruined for me because I can't throw tagbags worth a crap, but it works fantastically for others.

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Necromancy and Compulsion are the yin and the yang. Undead only come out at night, but there's a lot. Living things can come out at night, but they're all over the daytime.

 

 

Perhaps we should look at nature magic and twist it a bit more to effect plants as well as elementals?

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But, then again, each tree has their own strengths and weaknesses. Compulsion is ruined for me because I can't throw tagbags worth a crap, but it works fantastically for others.

 

I would think Battle magic would be a spell school more likely to be ruined by bad accuracy.

 

I always imagined compulsion as more for close-range use. Compulsion you can just walk up to people all friendly-like... then *whack* hit them with a dominate spell from a foot away. :)

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I always thought the whole concept of transporting from one place to another was awesome.

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I'm looking at the spell trees now.

 

Compulsion is pretty much a day-time only school, which makes me sad. I'd love to see more living NPCs at night, BUT what spells it does have are wicked when going up against living opponents. There are tons of great spells in the school, for in a fight and out of one.

 

Necromancy is a sticky bundle, but I can see at least 4 spells that can be used to great effect in almost any encounter. Final Rest (post encounter clean up), Creeping Rot (could be more useful if NPCs had, you know, healing with them more often), Curse (great for things like ogres and other monstrous critters), and Abomination (who does not like to become tougher?) are the four I can think of right off hand, then during the daytime you could use Unhallow and Gastly Visage to clear out a building and stay put yourself, just to be annoying.

 

You have to admit, though, that Nature might be a little -too- specialized for it's own good. There are a few great spells in there that are very useful...in certain situations, but the problem is how rarely these situations come up. Including this season, I've cast Elemental Dart exactly twice. Once was to fling it at a shield because it was close to convergance, and because I'd only ever cast the spell once before, the other was to get the attention of a troll and a few ogres. Now that Grounding Wire can stop it, I'll never toss it again probably. Getting 1 dart for 3 power is kinda undergunned. Yes, I know it gives you a elemental damage type, but is that -really- comparable to getting to ignore monstrous? I've cast Elemental Weapon at -least- 3-4 times as often (that I can think of), because more monsters come up that need a damage type (oozes, mannequins, and trolls are on that list), and a few times I've had to fight multiples of them, or they take more then 4 damage to drop, making hucking a single tagbag for 3 power much less cost efficient then lighting my sword on FIRE.

 

I know this is getting off topic a bunch, kinda, but if the Nature tree is supposed to be so badassed when fighting elementals and their ilk, why would I rather have Shadowskin when fighting them then Elemental Immunity? I know Shadowskin is only 10 minuites, but when you are facing off fighting anything bigger then a lesser elemental, Shadowskin is the way to go. Rarely do Genies have Silvershine, and the Greaters can just downcall their Elemental Weapons to do magic and stick a bitch the guy with Elemental Immunity anyways. And, outside of this season, how bloody often do Elementals and things that do elemental damage only actually come up? Mind you, I'm not bitching about Elemental Weapons ability to downcall for Magic. Matter of fact, it's one of the saving graves of the spell when facing down many differing types of elementals, like say, Team Mud. It's also a level 4 spell. It's supposed to be badassed and -useful-.

 

Back on semi topic. Yes, Nature is one of the three specialist schools, but when even stacked up next to Necromancy and Compulsion, it still falls short in many ways. It's good when you NEED it, but how often is it actually needed? This season has been a boon for me. Up until this season the only Nature spell I cast on a normal basis was Mend Armor, and I know everyone, their mother, and her DOG knows Dissipate. Having just two spells out of a whole tree used on a normal basis seems kinda wasteful. Compulsion and Necromancy get more use game to game. I'm not saying change anything now, but just take a look at the way things are now, and have been for the past three years, and you'll see some of my points.

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I may have not been in this game for long at all, but I can tell you just by reading spell descriptions I wasn't keen on going up the Nature tree (lol, get it? >_

 

In every case, I evaluated the spells and went "well... that's nice, BUT..." and then found something better for cheaper. The "better, cheaper" spell might not have been exactly the same, but it gets the job done. For spells that are specifically meant to target certain types of monsters... I'd much rather just run from THOSE monsters and instead have a spell that does decent damage to everything else.

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*nudges thread BACK on target*

 

So.... thoughts on Ley Lines?

I like it. No need to replace it with super-elemental-form spell. There are plenty of special attack/damage requirement spells/abilities in existance for the game to be fun. Lay Lines is UNIQUE. It's the only Teleportation ability there is.

 

I may have not been in this game for long at all, but I can tell you just by reading spell descriptions I wasn't keen on going up the Nature tree (lol, get it? >_

You say this during an ELEMENTAL WAR? And lets not forget about trolls, and other nasty things you have to hit with fire. Silver and Elven Steel are great, but come up against something you have to hit with elemental magic and you'll WISH you had a Nature mage on your side. There's plenty of good stuff in the nature tree for the average mage and enough specialized stuff to make Nature specialists downright dangerous. First level spells ALONE are incredibly useful. Grounding negates three different spells from two different schools of magic. Mend armor doubles the effectiveness of any fighter you've got worth his armor.

 

Every school has its own spells that don't seem all that useful until you hit the situation in which you wish you had it.

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And lets not forget about trolls, and other nasty things you have to hit with fire. Silver and Elven Steel are great, but come up against something you have to hit with elemental magic and you'll WISH you had a Nature mage on your side.

 

Yea. Fire. It's about the only damage requirement you see in game of the elemental types that's not on an elemental itself. Elemental Weapon is a great spell. It's got a weaker effect (usually) then Wraithbane, and is one level lower, right where it should be.

 

There's plenty of good stuff in the nature tree for the average mage and enough specialized stuff to make Nature specialists downright dangerous. First level spells ALONE are incredibly useful. Grounding negates three different spells from two different schools of magic. Mend armor doubles the effectiveness of any fighter you've got worth his armor.

 

I'm not griping about the low level stuff. that stuff is great. It's the higher end stuff that seems....lacking to say the least. Things don't get dodgy until Level 2 (Repel Insects? When the hell would this spell of ever been useful? Yebs? Usually sent into -town- three at a time. Is that really a threat to most PC parties? Buzzers? Can they even get aggressive? The one time I saw buzzers in danger they hid behind PCs. Waspoids? ONCE have they ever done their job, and that's because one of the party dissipated rather then stand his ground and it became a 4 on 3 fight in the Waspoid's favor.) and up.

 

 

Every school has its own spells that don't seem all that useful until you hit the situation in which you wish you had it.

 

Granted, to a point. The Nature tree is either underpowered, or the GMs are not throwing out the right things to make 80% of it useful. At least that's my observation.

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Granted, to a point. The Nature tree is either underpowered, or the GMs are not throwing out the right things to make 80% of it useful. At least that's my observation.

It's the latter, but here's why. Most of the time you wanna stuff an encounter full of bad guys any PC party can fight. The average army SHOULD be full of random footsoldiers. Magic is what you use to fit the midrange to boss bad guys, and depending on WHEN you PC, different schools of magic will come into play.

 

Nighttime generally sees a lot of Necromancy and Enchantment use because it's full of undead, and lots of undead creatures have damage requirements. Daytime it's Compulsion and Nature.

 

Any school of magic instantly becomes more useful if GMs start throwing out monsters geared towards it. And GM perogative is always fluid. You also have 4 shifts each run by different GMs and there's not ALWAYS communication between everyone so sometimes an event will be damage requirement-heavy or creature-type heavy. No control over stuff like that.

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ok time for me to put in my 2 cents. not that its worth much i just feel left out. for the most part i have to say i love the magic in this system it is very diverse and i love it beyond most everything else in this system. the nature tree is very much a specialist tree. i love the idea of laylines and its wonderful. can't say enough about it. but (you knew it was coming) its got very much bad things about it. pcs will rarely ever use it if they bother to get it at all. i can really only see two possible uses of it. your whole party is dead and you have 30 plus enemies heading your way and you can't out run them if your life depended on it. (and it would) or your party is in extreme danger of being killed and you need reinforcements badly. granted you can't return to the fight but you can transport back to town and get help. ok those are really the same situations so sorry only one good possible use out of it. the other spells in the nature tree are deverse and for the most part useful in select situations which is great but as stated previously concerning elemental dart is is overpriced and undergunned considering that most of the baddies that are sent against us have more then 4 points of armor/body. i would recommend that the elemental dart be raised from 1 dart to 2 darts. other then that i am happy with the others that i can think of but personally i don't forsee using any of the other nature spells that i have to purchase in order to get to ley lines and elemental immunity

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I hate Waspoids lol

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It's the latter, but here's why. Most of the time you wanna stuff an encounter full of bad guys any PC party can fight. The average army SHOULD be full of random footsoldiers. Magic is what you use to fit the midrange to boss bad guys, and depending on WHEN you PC, different schools of magic will come into play.

 

WHEN is part of the problem. I can't tell you how tempted I've been to change my PC shifts so I can actually get involved in the war, rather then cleaning up messes. I hardly ever see any of the plot that's going on out there, but that's another story. And I'm ok with monsters coming into game that any PC can fight, I'd just like to see more things for the specialists to do.

 

 

Nighttime generally sees a lot of Necromancy and Enchantment use because it's full of undead, and lots of undead creatures have damage requirements. Daytime it's Compulsion and Nature.

 

EVERY school should have use, day or night, and most do even if it's limited. And Enchantment is used when the hell ever some PC parties don't feel like feeling threatened or challenged, but again, that's a gripe for another thread.

 

Any school of magic instantly becomes more useful if GMs start throwing out monsters geared towards it. And GM perogative is always fluid. You also have 4 shifts each run by different GMs and there's not ALWAYS communication between everyone so sometimes an event will be damage requirement-heavy or creature-type heavy.

 

5 of the 7 schools don't need monsters geared towards them. Aegis, Battle, Enchantment, Restoration, and Compulsion are almost -always- useful, and Necromancy still has something like half it's spells useful, even during the day, when fighting things outside of it's purview. Nature is the bastard child of the Novitas Magic Trees.

 

No control over stuff like that.

 

The GMs have forums. They can communicate. They can talk about and control what goes out. That's part of why they are collecting data at every game. They talk, both at game and out of it. Saying that they have no control is just silly.

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I would argue that Restoration is just as conditional and situational as Necromancy or Nature.

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Dude, every school has people who don't like some of the spells. This is unavoidable with a system that has 5x2x7=70 different spells. When I played a Necromancer, I found myself largely useless during the daylight shifts. What did I do?

 

I learned some Battle Magic.

 

We are a classless system for a reason. If you're unhappy with Nature Magic, then diversify into another school, or two, or three.

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With how often people get hurt in our game, both as PCs and NPCs? After about 1/2 to 3/4 of the fights, -someone- is wounded. And I doubt anyone would argue about most of the spells on there, mostly because the school got a revamp in recent history.

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My current character knows a bunch of Restoration. I can count on the fingers of one hand how many times I've cast those spells in the two years I've played him.

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If you're unhappy with Nature Magic, then diversify into another school, or two, or three.

 

Here, let me fix that:

"If you're unhappy with Nature Magic, then diversify into another school, or two, or three, but please keep offering up your ideas, as they help the GMs think about changes that might be good for the next rules revision."

 

 

----------------

Listening to: Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers - Angel Dream (No. 4)

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Dude, every school has people who don't like some of the spells. This is unavoidable with a system that has 5x2x7=70 different spells. When I played a Necromancer, I found myself largely useless during the daylight shifts. What did I do?

 

I learned some Battle Magic.

 

Agreed. You can't please everyone all the time. I know this. But demmit if I don't feel like I'm learning the red headed stepchild of the magic tree because it's -too- specialized, even if I pick the most broad and useful spells in the tree.

 

We are a classless system for a reason. If you're unhappy with Nature Magic, then diversify into another school, or two, or three.

 

And I am. I'm starting to go to other schools and pick low hanging fruit. At this point I have as many spells out of other schools then Nature now, just not nearly as powerful ones. I've also been beefing up my fighting "stats" and so forth, taking full advantage of the classless system as fast as my little exp grabbing mits will let me.

 

My argument is that most people don't go more then two spells into Nature, because the rest are "meh" at best when stacked up to others that do similar things from other schools. Why learn Elemental Immunity when Shadowskin is more effective for battling elementals? Why learn Elemental Dart when Magic Swarm is more efficient at fighting lesser elementals? -That- is the crux of my problem. It's too narrow when stacked up to other schools. By my two examples, -Alia- is more well equipped to handle elementals then Gaius, a Nature mage, will ever be. That just seems...wrong in so many ways. A Nature mage, IMHO, should be able to handle all wild things, not just elementals, and when elementals do come up in game, they should worry about the Nature mage first and foremost.

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My current character knows a bunch of Restoration. I can count on the fingers of one hand how many times I've cast those spells in the two years I've played him.

 

How often do you get into fights? How many times have you turned people away for healing because they where not high enough Status, or did not have enough coin? If you are not casting the spells you know because you choose not to, that's not the schools fault. The Restoration School is fine just the way it is, now. I think most people will agree with me on that point.

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Elemental immunity is better than shadowskin.

 

(Out of a tome) I've had Atticus cast Elemental immunity because someone said the word "fire". Then we BS'd for ten minutes, looked out the window for ten minutes, and THEN finally walked out to poke at elementals.

 

game day is a long, long time.

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Elemental immunity is better than shadowskin.

 

(Out of a tome) I've had Atticus cast Elemental immunity because someone said the word "fire". Then we BS'd for ten minutes, looked out the window for ten minutes, and THEN finally walked out to poke at elementals.

 

game day is a long, long time.

 

Duration wise, yes. But how often do things actually swing for elemental damage? And of those things, how often can it be downcalled to "Magic" or "Normal" to bypass the spell entiely? I know Greater Elementals can do that, leaving you just as vulnerable to it's melee attacks as if you had walked up naked. And along the same lines, how often do NPCs swing for Elven Steel or Silver? I'll take 10 minutes of practical invulnerability VS 90-98% of all combat encounters (including elementals) over game day of maybe 10% of encounters on a high density day of elementals during -this season-.

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Any school of magic instantly becomes more useful if GMs start throwing out monsters geared towards it. And GM perogative is always fluid. You also have 4 shifts each run by different GMs and there's not ALWAYS communication between everyone so sometimes an event will be damage requirement-heavy or creature-type heavy. No control over stuff like that.

 

 

Forcing plot or forcing certain monsters upon PCs because they need to keep Spell schools of magic in balance is close to, if not THE WORST, idea for any game.

 

I don't send fire elementals at a party in my D&D games just to make the mage who took Ice Storm feel balanced in his usefulness compared to the mage who took Fireball. In the same regard, you don't send monsters at PCs with a particular immunity just because you know it'll screw over certain people that are playing at that particular time.

 

I mean, I'm not here to tell anyone how to run their game. I'm just saying that's a fundamental rule. You shouldn't have to make GMs to tailor monsters just to uphold balance in the rules for spells. That's really all there is to it. If you have to do things like that then the rules need fixing, ...dont build plot or encounters to fight back against rule loopholes and such.

 

I think anyone who DMs for an RPG game can at least agree to that to some degree.

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Fire is also for more than killing trolls and elementals. It affects Oozes, Trolls, Elementals, Greater Water Elementals, and some types of undead.

 

On that note, I think we might want to make it appropriate that fire can hurt Vampires. It fits nicely with the mythology and gives another option since we can't make a "four wooden stake!" call.

 

Back to Ley Lines. This is a great spell to have for recon, message running, and all sorts of tactics if you use it right. It would take planning. All encounters in this game aren't straight-up fights.

 

Get taken prisoner? Ley Lines!

Pressed into your cabin by a horde of undead and need reinforcements? Ley Lines! Sending a scout into hostile territory and need to ensure they can get back? Ley Lines!

 

You just need to select a tactically sound place for the binding and make use of the advantage when it comes up. Great spell. Utility spells are hard enough to come with in a game like this. This one works. I hope my character Sidhan gets up to it some day. Wild Elf SFs man!

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Remember too that we really dislike duplicating effects across schools of magic.

 

Looking back at your proposed replacement spell, I think it's far too powerful. It's like Shadowskin, except that (by your own admission) far fewer people have the means to defeat it, AND it duplicates a powerful lower level spell (Elemental Weapon) as an add-on effect.

 

Perhaps you'd be happier if some of the lower level spells were buffed/changed/made more useful? Repel Insects is pretty much a stinker. Going down the list...

 

Mend Armor = awesome

Grounding = situational, but awesome

Dissipate = awesome

Repel Insects = teh sucks. We don't have enough insect costumes or powerful enough insect monsters for this to matter.

Elemental Dart = necessary, but maybe a little weak. Might need a bump to two darts, four for Doodads.

Elemental Binding = situationally teh win

Elemental Weapon = teh win

Elemental Command = situationally teh win

Ley Lines = generally thought of as cool, but apparently not universally

Elemental Immunity = might need a buff, in view of the "cool stuff can down-call their damage" argument. Might have to revisit that mechanic.

 

I'm not really seeing where the Nature school is terribly weak. You have three of your first four spells that are awesome. The two third level spells are situational, and maybe a touch weak, then awesome at four and good at five...

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