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Bill

Elven steel

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I have heard a few people tell me Elven steel is going to be impossible to put on martial weapons soon.

I have tried saving up to afford one before that occurs, but that seems unlikely with one more event to go, but I will keep trying, since I dont want to be the only guy wielding a dagger in a swordfight against the everpresent wraiths.

 

So what I am looking for is a few answers about this, or someone to tell me I've just heard wrong.

 

first, what change is happening exactly? is elven steel becoming a 24 point item, or is martial becoming more than 4?

 

second, what is the timeline of this, it happens with the February event I have heard, but does production for that even use the old rules or the new ones? Ie, do I have one more event to work with?

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The rule changes ALWAYS happen in February...

 

Basically, the Staff takes things that the players have totally twisted, butchered or somehow broke and change it so that it doesn't happen anymore... I know of a legend where Elven Steel was so rare that about 1 or 2 people actually had it. I think the fact that about 90% of players in game can now hit for Elven Steel, Wraiths, Wights and other creatures needing it are LESS scary. Wraiths used to be feared. Not just "oh crap, I don't have Elven Steel" scared, I mean like you don't stick around to even watch the fight scary because not many people had ES.

 

I haven't heard any of the new rule changes going about. I try to stay out that stuff so I don't metagame anything. "Oh ES is going away forever? I better sell everything so I have one before that happens" seems a bit cheese to me. (not saying that's what you are doing, just my own philosophy why I don't get involved). Also, they don't tell us many of the changes for that same reason. We all sit down at Feb Feast and go over TONS of stuff. It's single handedly the most fun, and most important game in my honest opinion.

 

I'm pretty sure February is the last event that use the "old" rules, as we don't go over the new ones until the shift ends. However; be advised that there are only 25 or so PC spots open. This might make it a little difficult to do any in Character trading.

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The rule changes ALWAYS happen in February...

 

Basically, the Staff takes things that the players have totally twisted, butchered or somehow broke and change it so that it doesn't happen anymore... I know of a legend where Elven Steel was so rare that about 1 or 2 people actually had it. I think the fact that about 90% of players in game can now hit for Elven Steel, Wraiths, Wights and other creatures needing it are LESS scary. Wraiths used to be feared. Not just "oh crap, I don't have Elven Steel" scared, I mean like you don't stick around to even watch the fight scary because not many people had ES.

 

I haven't heard any of the new rule changes going about. I try to stay out that stuff so I don't metagame anything. "Oh ES is going away forever? I better sell everything so I have one before that happens" seems a bit cheese to me. (not saying that's what you are doing, just my own philosophy why I don't get involved). Also, they don't tell us many of the changes for that same reason. We all sit down at Feb Feast and go over TONS of stuff. It's single handedly the most fun, and most important game in my honest opinion.

 

I'm pretty sure February is the last event that use the "old" rules, as we don't go over the new ones until the shift ends. However; be advised that there are only 25 or so PC spots open. This might make it a little difficult to do any in Character trading.

 

To be fair, I started saving for an elven steel weapon after the first game or two when it became apparent that I would run into something with elven steel requirements at least once or twice a shift, sometimes more. My options were training towards wraithbane of buying a sword. That wasnt the training direction I wanted the character to take, So I started saving. I was talking about such when someone mentioned that I might want to buy it sooner rather than later.

 

Unfortunately, as you say, pretty much everyone has elven steel, so elven steel critters are around alot. I'd like to have a good weapon to combat them. Changing how hard they are to make now doesnt change any of that, it just means I will have a dagger when everyone else has a sword. I admit its a bit metagame, but it would be Very frustrating to be carefully saving my coins only to have my goal pulled out from under me without warning by equally metagame changes.

 

 

 

 

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It sounds like you may have heard outdated info Bill. ES recently changed from something like 10 to 20 craft points, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was going to go up again. I think your best option is to save up 250-300 coin and that way whatever the new ruling does or doesn't turn out to be, you be able to buy your elven steel sword in whatever length is currently allowed at that time.

 

@ Tony - Goblin Iron was supposedly changing from 5 to 8 craft points in september, but hasn't so far. Really your best option is wait to see it in writing on a public forum somewhere before changing how you make things (or request to have things made) in game.

 

The only way to actually control the rarity of Elven Steel is to remove it from the list of things that can be made by players. There's so much coin floating around now, that crafters could easily churn out ES 30" swords every event for players/parties that wanted them. Pair it with a shield and they're good to go. Removing ES from the player crafting list would also make Wraithbane more useful instead of just a stepping stone to mastering the school as well.

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If you can make it happen, I would recommend getting your ES crafted this year, including feb feast.

 

I would expect 2012 to have a number of rules changes. I'm speaking vaguely because KoN isn't a dictatorship, so I don't know what we're going to do.

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I do believe there's this fancy bank in town that has seemingly fair interest rates on loans...

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I do believe there's this fancy bank in town that has seemingly fair interest rates on loans...

 

Just make sure you make your payments. Or else. Dun dun duuuuuun!

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The only way to actually control the rarity of Elven Steel is to remove it from the list of things that can be made by players.

 

 

If there was a reduction in monsters sent out whose DR required Elven Steel then economics would suggest that Elven Steel weapons would start to deminish in number as demand is lowered. If 5 wraiths get sent out every night, you better believe every player will do anything they can to get ES. We saw the same thing with Goblin Iron as a result of the Fae metaplot (or perhaps the prevalance of Bagmen), and now that it's over I will wager that less demand for GI will cause it to deminish as well - as props wear out new ones won't be forged at a fast enough rate to replace the old if they aren't cost effective for the PC's to have. If DR appropreate creatures were rarer to see in game, more coin would be spent on consumables like 2 Steps and Enchant Weapon oils than would be invested in rare mat weaponry.

 

 

Edit: Either that or devalue the currency. Too much coin being pumped into the game and fixed prices means everyone can afford more stuff.

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I don't necessarily think it is fair to blame one particular thing for the overgrowth of magic weaponry.

 

First of all, Cool Weapons are cool so everyone wants one either way.

 

2nd: Monsters aren't just "Not Scary Anymore" because of large amounts of weapons. I think it is perhaps a good idea to consider buffing some stats on monsters. Ogres and similar common monsters just hold no fear effect anymore. Also I would think that it is past time to get serious about putting out different monsters. People know how to kill Wraiths and Bagmen because they see them so often that it isn't scary anymore. A mychanoid scared me this last event when he hit me with a "Poison Stun" unexpectedly.

 

3rd: It seems like we could save some room by getting rid of down calling. If someone had to carry Silver, Magic, and Elven Steel at the same time then we would see less abundance of the best of the best.

 

4th: People don't get robbed anymore. For whatever reason people just don't seem to be losing their items as much as they used too. I understand that sometimes it sucks to get rolled and looted but lately I can't think of anyone losing something powerful to NPC's. The first year or two I attended game it seemed like a lot more people lost items to NPC's.

 

 

Mostly, my point is that there many things affecting the magic weapon economy and I don't necessarily think it is fair to blame one particular thing. Maybe if more people Permanently died we would be better off as well.

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part of the problem is of course that there are crazy high level well equipped people, and there are low level people scraping for the first elven steel weapon in the group. And there is no way a GM can know which one will hook the plot most of the time.

 

Ogres and wraiths may be 'just not scary anymore' to you, they scare me plenty. I absolutely hate bagmen. Eventually I will get to the point where these arent scary, and a good part of that is getting my hands on a way to deal damage to them.

 

Donna has alchemy and corruption is level 1, so I carry a few of those around now, it was kind of nice to actually smack the bogart a few times before I got dominated, rather than sit there doing nothing. But enchant weapon at level 3 isnt cheap, and is only 10 minutes, and wraithbane scrolls are damn expensive (and I cant read scrolls). Thus trying to get an elven steel weapon.

 

Not downcalling elven steel isnt the real answer I dont think, especially since elven steel is basically 'extra magical silver'. I dont know that DR is the best way to challenge people, as it is either completely irrelevent to a party that has the DR, or a complete stop to the party that doesnt. There isnt a lot of in between, which when you go back to 'dont know what the group will have when you make the encounter' bit above, can make some frustrating things occur.

 

It saddens me that DR doesnt work more like slay. A monster that had 10 body, monstrous to everything but elven steel would be both just about as scary as a wraith and challenging to understand, since it isnt calling no-effect, you would have to piece together DR by observation [you could use lore to figure it out too]. And a person without elven steel doesnt have to go sit in the inn and let the big boys handle the fight.

 

But thats kind of going off tangent here, since all I was looking for was an idea of what I need to do to get myself a weapon, and its clear that I need to beg/borrow/steal the money for one before February to get it crafted in Feb at the latest :)

 

-Bill

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You could always bring in something to sell, too.

 

I sell out of wine almost every event at 10-15 coin a bottle. But it also requires OOG time & money, and IC lugging a heavy sack of wine bottles around.

Just find something that characters will want, at a price they will pay, that you are willing to put in effort for...

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On the other hand, I played the game for 5 years without an elven steel sword and I did fine.

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You could always bring in something to sell, too.

 

I sell out of wine almost every event at 10-15 coin a bottle. But it also requires OOG time & money, and IC lugging a heavy sack of wine bottles around.

Just find something that characters will want, at a price they will pay, that you are willing to put in effort for...

 

We did, did you get a chance to try any of Donna's awesome bread, or the brownies? :)

I am working on it, I've got a good bit saved so far actually, its just going to be tight to make it in the timeframe I have.

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People know how to kill Wraiths and Bagmen because they see them so often that it isn't scary anymore.

 

Not totally correct. As a lone Bagman I managed to set GoST scrambling around. It's not necessarily the stats, but how the monster is used. By taking a Bagman and skulking about town rather then just walking in (you know, like the monster under your bed) it had the desired effect.

 

On the other hand, I played the game for 5 years without an elven steel sword and I did fine.

 

My last PC, Gaius, never had an Elven Steel weapon. He had a Silver one for two events before it broke. He toted around a Magic Goblin Iron weapon before either of those calls where actually useful. Between Silvershine, the occasional Enchant Weapon spell from someone else, and fighting smartly he did just fine. A lot of it is finding your niche and working it to the best of your ability.

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Rhaveniel's had an Elven steel weapon for a little over a year, but that is only because Miles left it with her before he disappeared. She's done just fine with enchant weapon and silvershine when necessary and has never used poison. I agree with Phil, finding your niche and fighting style is more important that the type of weapon you carry. The bazaar sells scrolls and potions of pretty much everything you'd need, including poisons and weapon stones.

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I'm a high level PC.

 

I can cast wraithbane, I could buy an elven steel weapon.

 

I still run away from Wraiths. Ask the Oddfellow's chair.

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Lol I thought for sure that he was gonna fall on his ass the way he was back pedaling through the whole camp site

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It saddens me that DR doesnt work more like slay. A monster that had 10 body, monstrous to everything but elven steel would be both just about as scary as a wraith and challenging to understand, since it isnt calling no-effect, you would have to piece together DR by observation [you could use lore to figure it out too]. And a person without elven steel doesnt have to go sit in the inn and let the big boys handle the fight.

 

 

Someone make this a thing.

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Very cool concept about DR and monstrous, Bill...

 

Downcalling - I don't necessarily have an issue with this... I don't think it should be possible to downcall from Silver to just basic damage, or something similar since I don't quite understand how you could avoid using the material that your blade is made of. I do NOT like that you can't poison a Silver blade, but you can still Wraithbane a Goblin Iron blade. That defeats the purpose of being unable to poison the pure if you can use a loophole with spells.

 

Elemental Damage - I wish that this would go back to Fire, Earth, Water, Air.... I think the "fear" was instilled more when something came into town that you needed a certain Element that nobody had... Primal Form would just allow you to swing for any of them and still keep the other affects.

 

Stats - I love when certain GMs change up the stats a little bit... Putting an Ogre in with 5 or 6 Body Monstrous instead of 4 is enough to make a couple NPCs go "WTF!?"... Fluctuating stats each encounter will forever keep people guessing, and also keep them into the battle instead of thinking "Hmm Ogre, I have to hit it x amount of times each time it respawns."

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I like the "DR this, monstrous everything else" idea as a concept to challenge the PCs.

 

As an NPC, I don't like the additional math.

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Not to be a downer but I thought the idea behind DR's was to instill fear. I understand the frustration of not being able to hurt a monster but we all suffer from that problem at some point. Thats why we have groups, so at least one member can hurt a monster you fight. If you don't fear the dead because most people can kill them then maybe you would fear a group of trolls or an ooze or fae. I know very few people that can harm everything. Without DR's the power players of the game will become even more overpowered and the need for groups will diminish. Also less people will want to buy potions/scrolls, weapons, or enchanted items that cast DR related spells because if enough people swarm a monster they can kill it. I honestly think that changing how DR works will change the PCs into less of heros and more of a giant lynch mob.

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PCs are already a giant lynch mob.

 

I don't think we were talking about changing any existing monsters, but instead trying it out on a new monster.

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sorta defeats the point of figuring it out on existing monsters.

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I've been playing Novitas for 5 years, and Xicris for 4 of them. I never got an ES weapon. I had practically NO magical equipment for the first 2 years of playing Xicris. Through spells and having friends with stuff, I was able to stay alive. And I was plenty scared, but not so much that I felt overwhelmed. So I agree with Dan. Wraiths, still scary.

 

Now, there definitely HAS been a big jump in magical equipment since I started playing due to magical item construction abilities. I used to ASK when players would be able to make stuff, then it got added, and now I see why it was such a major change. I certainly didn't expect every group to get themselves a smith, and I also thought it would be hard to come across the kind of coin to make that stuff. However, I forgot that Xicris was poor, and he (just like me) has no mind for business or how to get lots of treasure. With good planning you can really get some serious weaponry.

 

I have remembered items, like rituals, that loose their powers after a year and a day, and have wondered why there are not more items like this. I mean, nobody likes losing items, but the power of the game's equipment might be more balanced if stuff cycles out after a while. GM weapon drops used to be something everyone searched high and low for, and now they are practically unnecessary because of item creation. Either that, or the weapon drops are more powerful then anything anyone could create on their own.

 

These are not complaints, just observations over the last several years. The GMs rock for the work that they've done to keep this game from going insane with powerful items.

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