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Dren Ollevres

DIABLO III

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It's Diablo, the game has always been linear. You click on monsters until they die, then move forward to click on more monsters. The game has never really changed since the Original.

 

I know that it's restrictive because it's a Beta, but it's TOO linear. In Diablo 2, you had a ton of quests within an act. You could go to so many different areas, some that weren't even part of a quest. I'm hoping it opens up more for the final release.

 

As the others have said, my biggest concerns are the floating potions and the skills... I would like to have a skill set similar to D2, where I get to pick and choose to make my own character.

 

Overall, it was an okay time, the more I've played the more I like things, but the floating potions still bother me to no end. Fighting is much better than in 2. You actually have to use some strategy when you get to the harder stuff and the cooldown on potions and stuff limits you severely. Graphics are leaps and bounds ahead of D2. This game will be good, but will never compare to D2, unless something dramatic changes at the launch.

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Its a beta... ;)

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Beta just means Blizzard will release it as is six to eight months late and patch later.

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I would much rather play a diablo with more monsters and less "lets see how many full rejuvs i can carry and how many charms i can slap in here while keeping a 2x4 for loot"

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Honestly, if they just gave me a skill tree with buttons that gave me the illusion it was affecting my skills, even if they did nothing, it would be twice as satisfying as what there is now. I can't express just how much I hate the 'zero customization' concept. Coming up with the right skill build is what I thought these games were all about. That's the fun part. The clicking and grinding is supposed to be the tedious part that gets you to the FUN new skill point to assign.

 

There's no reason to make two characters of the same class... so there goes replayability right down the drain.

 

I actually began to feel bad for the artists while I was playing. I thought the artwork and music was great. So much good work wasted on such a poor game design that could literally be fixed by giving the users skill points. You can't even put points into strength or vitality, for fuck sake. I may as well invite over some Blizzard employees to play the game for me since that's pretty much what's happening.

 

It feels like we're doing chores clicking down linear hallways from objective to objective so we can fuel their % cut they they get off the top of auction house item sales. It's as if all the Chinese gold farmers from WoW were given jobs in the D3 design department to keep them distracted. :P

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played my sorc the rest of the way through the tutorial now. the last few levels were a bit more open and felt like D2, I didnt have quite as bad of an on-rails feel.

The magic items are fun and varied, and the Leoric fight was actually an interesting bit of cooldown timing and resource management for me. It could certainly be harder, but I can see some potential.

 

As some have said, the ability to customize abilitys with runes seems good on the surface, but again they dont seem to influence the spell enough, its hard to tell with so few unlocked.

The strategy of using all the skills they do give you is limited by the difficulty of swapping them out and customizing your action bar, which is probably my biggest beef with the game.

 

And of course I would love to see more customization, but I think it will be fun to play through overall, just nowhere near the replayability of 2.

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The only replayability d2 had was "i wonder if a hammerdin can do bossruns faster than my sorc"

 

Nobody knows yet the endgame, if its item runs or *shudder* pvp or what.

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That's a variant on what Dren's saying. If all classes get built the same way now, there's less replayability.

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Building a new sorceress because you misclicked one point, or because lightning didnt turn out to be as fun as youd thought isnt fun replayability, its just grinding for grindings sake.

 

If what they say is true, and you really have to play together in multiplayer games instead of going off alone, id rather at least know the other guys have useful spells, instead of a hundred points in some useless thing that isnt effective. Drens right and its really just the illusion of choice thats important. Lets be honest, in games with skill trees, if you dont fill yours out according to the mathematically optimal way, youre going to be ridiculed by someone, and probably for good reason.

 

It seems diablo does give you that illusion of choice, since theres a finite number of spells you can have available, or on your mouse, so you do get to make some decisions. When you get a new spell you dont have to use it, because the old one still works.

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Building a new sorceress because you misclicked one point, or because lightning didnt turn out to be as fun as youd thought isnt fun replayability, its just grinding for grindings sake.

 

If what they say is true, and you really have to play together in multiplayer games instead of going off alone, id rather at least know the other guys have useful spells, instead of a hundred points in some useless thing that isnt effective. Drens right and its really just the illusion of choice thats important. Lets be honest, in games with skill trees, if you dont fill yours out according to the mathematically optimal way, youre going to be ridiculed by someone, and probably for good reason.

 

It seems diablo does give you that illusion of choice, since theres a finite number of spells you can have available, or on your mouse, so you do get to make some decisions. When you get a new spell you dont have to use it, because the old one still works.

 

from what multiplayer I did, people will still go off alone, but again, just a beta, could get harder.

 

its not about the illusion of customization, the 'go to the web for the best build' crap that has come out of wow kind of sucks. In D2, and most other mmos before wow, there was some concept of 'bad' skills, but not so much of a 'you didnt copy your build off EJ, I dont care if you are doing more DPS than me, you are built wrong' kind of bullshit. Good games give talents that allow a single class to perform in noticeably different ways.

 

A lot of smart people can and have had fun with suboptimal builds that perform in ways that are very different than other builds. Even on basic levels, a Javelin amazon was a whole different game than a bow amazon. And even a javelin amazon focused on damage could feel different than one focused on defense. And focusing on your pet over personal attacks could make it feel different again. None of these builds were 'bad'. some performed better or worse at different things.

 

As soon as the game guarantees that you have access to all skills, people you group with will whine if you use anything other than the 'web forum of the weeks best choices'. At least in D2, if you saw a paladin playing with hammers, you worked with it because you knew he couldnt just up and change it, and you know what, everyone did just fine and still managed to have fun even so.

 

On the other hand, the choices they do have, ie, you can only have 4 skills on your bar in a given situation, lowers the overall amount of tactical options you can work with in a given fight, simplifying combat. I'm a fan of lots of tactical choice, and I know I used well over 4 hotkeys on my D2 characters on a regular basis, to adapt to different situations. Giving everyone the same character, but only letting you use 4 powers at a time did not feel like a good mechanic to me. I felt limited just in the beta not being able to swap between my single target attack and my aoe attack before entering a place. you cant put the aoe on the bar, then step into a big tough guy and swap it back, or vice-versa, so you are just left running around suboptimally half the time, or trying not to die with you play with menus.

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I've never heard the "I can't build more than one character of the same class" complaint about any other RPG before. WTF are the point of talent/skill trees anyway? The abilities you choose to use most often, their specific runes, and the types of items you choose to wear should be enough to make you feel different from the others of your same class. And this isn't a game of tank/dps/healer, so nobody is going to rage at you for not using some agreed upon "best" build. Nobody's watching you on the DPS meter, they are just watching shit get blown up.

 

I think now, the "choice" is in your strategy and play-style, not your ability to fill out a diagram. Feels like an improvement to me for a fast-paced real time combat dungeon crawling game.

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With rushing and baal runs, I could have a lvl 65 in a day... I would grind and grind until I got to lvl 75-80 and then I would scrap together my characters from all the saved up stuff and PvP... So i agree with Dren. I would re-make characters and redesign their builds almost every week. It was fun because that was the game to me. I want a Hammerdin and a smite pally. I want a shapeshifter and a hurricane druid. It was a blast.

 

"oh, the hammerdin cant kill your godly barb, try out my smite pally!" -- will be replaced by (if there is even PvP), hold up until my buttons cool down, I gotta switch skills here to try and beat you. Oh, you're just switching skills to counter it? Ok, fuck...

 

Not to mention.. You're in the heat of the battle, and all you have to do is kill a shitty creature and a red floating potion heals you right up....

 

Don't get me wrong, I will enjoy playing this through and seeing the storyline and such. However; with what I've seen. It wont last nearly as long as DII. For fucks sake, you can STILL sign on to DII and have full servers with 1000s of people playing. I don't see this being DIII in 10 years. Unless something drastic changes in the game when it's launched.

 

Edit: Feels like Titan's Quest. How well did that game do? Oh right, it didn't...

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Waaaaah ive seen 2% of the game and it waaaaaah

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^^ This

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Here's a very good response to the argument that Diablo 3's new system has been "dumbed down".

 

http://www.reddit.co...d2_not_so_fast/

 

And for those who want to spend even more time analyzing the differences between D2 and D3:

 

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/3811455085?page=1

 

Incredibly TL, but if you want to really make a case that D2 was actually somehow more complex and allowed more "strategic building" of your character, you should read the above.

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good links

 

So, the tl;dr is this: they've made stat progression automatic for all classes because this way you can't screw up your stats and have to rebuild, and because all stat bonuses will come from items and gems, which are going to be ridiculously customizable.

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Have we heard anything about PvP??? Have we heard anything else about Multi player??

 

The stats have been turned into WoW according to the first link... A character should focus on getting bonuses to the stat that benefits their class the most, while not worrying about stat requirements or anything else. Okay, that's cool. That would prevent Wizards from wearing Plate because I'm assuming it wont give their class the bonus it seeks.

 

However; I do think it's lame that a character can even wield stuff that they would never use... (My Monk wields a giant Polearm, on his back, while he punches, because he has no attacks that use a weapon). <--- This should be fixed... We will end up seeing a Monk with a giant barbarian axe, that he cant use, strapped to his back while he flies through the air to kick and punch... Lame. There are plenty of things to implement to account for each class. It would also increase PvE playing, because you could trade with other characters for items that you class needs.

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Neither of those are important to me, honestly. I like co-op PvE, and that's been implemented.

 

PvP was just a way for me to grief people by body-popping them.

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Pvp in games with random loot and levels is shenanigans.

 

If its not a fairly level playing field, then youre playing player vs gear, not so much vs player.

 

Sure, its a nice diversion, but you're lying to yourself if you think these games demonstrate your superior skill. Go play counterstrike or starcraft or even world of tanks or something.

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Here's a very good response to the argument that Diablo 3's new system has been "dumbed down".

 

http://www.reddit.co...d2_not_so_fast/

 

And for those who want to spend even more time analyzing the differences between D2 and D3:

 

http://us.battle.net...11455085?page=1

 

Incredibly TL, but if you want to really make a case that D2 was actually somehow more complex and allowed more "strategic building" of your character, you should read the above.

 

Well, the first link very succinctly sums up what I hate about the current overall mindset of gamers.

You start out at the theoretical perfect build off a website, and then, if you build differently, you have failed, so why should there be choice when there is only one optimal choice?

the answer of course is 'because its actually fun to play a character not copy a build from a website and put all 500 points in vitality because its the best'.

 

 

The second link didnt actually cause me pain to read at least, and the fact that stat points are better balanced is great, but really doesnt weigh in on the 'spendable points vs no spendable points' argument at all.

The skill section on the other hand, I disagree with fully, and to take a quick quote to illustrate my point:

 

'As you leveled in D2 you had to choose what abilities became more powerful. In Diablo 3 the answer is that the character itself becomes more powerful. As you acquire better items and improve your primary stat and weapon damage, all of your abilities follow suit. Now I can use frozen orb and hydra, still getting max damage from both. How cool would it be to play a sorceress that mastered firewall, blizzard, chain lightning, enchant, and static field all at the same time? That sounds pretty darned fun!

 

The truth is otherwise. You cannot use those at the same time, they will all be bound to the 'secondary skills' and no matter how much you might want to, you cannot use them both. In D2, you could, even if it wasnt the most effective character, at least you could do it.

 

honestly, when he said '6 at a time is typically more than any D2 character used anyway.' I sighed. I cant think of any character that honestly didnt use at least 6 skills regularly. My paladin for example, often switched between zeal, charge, and vengance, depending on immunities and mobility of enemys. Zeal may have been my primary attack, but fast enemys were easier to hit with charge, and physical immunes were a lot easier to kill with vengeance, and in Hell, you ran into both of those types frequently. For my aura, I regularly made use of frost aura, fanaticism aura, and conviction aura as needed (I may have the names wrong, its been a while), and they all had use. And the one that turns corpses into health mana against necromancers and the like as well. Thats just one character off the top of my head, and 7 skills that I used literally every time I played. In D3, I would have to choose between either Zeal, charge, or vengeance, the others would not be available without digging in the menu. And I would have to choose one aura again, for the same reason. No more popping on the aura to keep the raises down, or throwing on frost when those cliff jumpers were all over, or tossing up conviction when ranged caster types showed up.

 

Of course this means that the game will be designed so that any set of skills will be able to overcome a situation, ultimately meaning that they will not put you in a situation where you need to mix these skills to win, which means that ultimately, the skill system is simplified to what 4 (6 eventually I think) skills you pick for your bar.

 

The fact that he went on to bash anyone who preferred more options as hardcore, and insulting such as requiring abacuses and planetary orbits to figure out characters, and liking pre-nerf sunwell (hey, wait, I thought that was the most fun point in wow, guess he's aiming at me), kind of detracted from his initial well organized argument.

 

Clearly I am not the sort of gamer this game is designed for, I am the sort of gamer its predecessor was designed for. And the changes in blizzard philosophy are the same ones that made me stop enjoying wow as well. I like a game with depth and detail, maybe its conceited, but I dont want to play a game that every tactical choice is so trivially easy that the average 13 year old can make it on the first try. I want to make more than 6 choices in my characters career to make the character what I want it to be.

 

Honestly, I should probably move to a D3 board if I am going to go into this kind of detail :)

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This is probably coming from someone who probably gets their ass kicked in PvP games all the time... D2 was one of the best games ever for PvP. So is WoW.... Both with random drops and uneven fields.

 

I would say that these types of games strive in PvP... You work together to get to the point where you can PvP others. WoW, SWTOR and Diablo are famous for it. They force you to PvP at some point. To get the best items.

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This is probably coming from someone who probably gets their ass kicked in PvP games all the time... D2 was one of the best games ever for PvP. So is WoW.... Both with random drops and uneven fields.

 

I would say that these types of games strive in PvP... You work together to get to the point where you can PvP others. WoW, SWTOR and Diablo are famous for it. They force you to PvP at some point. To get the best items.

 

I didnt do a lot of pvp in D2, just some screwing around with friends, but it was fun. I tend to prefer PvE, either solo or co-op. But one game that had excellent pvp was guild wars. That was a system that does a lot of what D3 was striving for, but does it right. Everyone has access to all skills, but the order you choose to take them is up to you, and the later ones take work to get. In addition, you are only allowed 8 skills in an instance, but you get to pick any set of 8, rather than 1 each of 6 subsets. But moreso than that, all the skills were built with very interesting synergys and mechanics.

 

I did some wow pvp, and it was fun enough, but I never felt I had to do pvp for the best gear, you could get the best pve gear without ever doing pvp. I never felt forced, more like an enjoyable sidegame now and then. Maybe thats changed, I havent played really for about a year now.

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I played the Open Beta until the Services were too packed tonight. The more I play, the more I enjoy things. I still have little pet peeves, but the map opens up quite a bit at the end. The Dungeon seems to open out and the monsters are a little tougher (I was forced to actually use healing and such).

 

I saw more variety of weapons and bonuses as time went on. Monks and Barbs are pretty fun. I think I'm more excited about the story line than anything else. All the books and side dialogue is very interesting to me.

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Summary: If I want to play a wizard with 500 points in strength, or a barbarian with 1000% mana regen, I should fucking well be able to.

 

The options are there; just enable players to do what they want. I don't care about game balance or pvp or whatever. Sometimes I like creating challenges for myself by picking a theme and going with it, even if it's not even close to a decent character-build.

 

Even if they had the ability to change (cosmetically) the frost ray to a fire beam, I'd be fully satisfied. Allow players to swap out skills still, or whatever, but at least make them feel like they have SOME ownership of their character.

 

It just feels like someone's handing you a pre-made D&D character that you have to do all the work leveling up, and that's just not fun. I don't care if D3 will be the most epic story in the history of gaming; once I get to max level with each character I don't want "endgame". I want to be able to make a new character and play it differently.... a thing you plain and simply cannot do because of how they've designed the game.

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Dren, from what I read, all the Runes are the customization you're looking for.

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