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Dren Ollevres

DIABLO III

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I agree with dren. I was an avid d2 player, a little too hardcore for my own good. I played so much because of the barter style economy and the character customization. Now, you are playing non-mmo style WoW. Previously I could make probably 10 extremely different barbarians or paladins. Now you just create a generic barbarian and change gear and rotation and you have created a new character in essence. This may be a better system for some, but I'm personally sad at the direction they went with the game. I was customization dammit.

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I don't read that as customization, I read that as "I want to have to do a lot of work to be able to do something else with this class"

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I don't read that as customization, I read that as "I want to have to do a lot of work to be able to do something else with this class"

 

It really isn't that much work... With rushing, cow runs and baal runs you could have a lvl 75-80 in a very short amount of time (two nights of playing). The replay value of the game was incredibly high, because it was easy to do, the map changed and the monsters changed every time you logged on.

 

I gotta admit. I loved grinding to get new items and trying to get to lvl 99. It wasn't easy, but that's what made it a fun challenge. Not everyone was expected or required to get to the highest level to be good. The new direction of the game is going to take a lot of adjustment. I'm not a WoW fan. I don't like cooldowns or floating potions. Quite frankly I think the runes are pointless and do nothing but change the move completely. They don't necessarily always improve it, it's just different than the original move in some way...

 

If the items, runes and such are going to be the customizations, than I hope I don't have to switch them at any point to fight certain acts. I want to be able to have a build that I like and stick to it at some point.

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I don't read that as customization, I read that as "I want to have to do a lot of work to be able to do something else with this class"

 

Yes, and thats a good thing.

Lots of work in this case translates to 'I want to play the game a lot'

This is commonly referred to as replayability.

The fact that a person wants to play a second sorcerer through the game means they like the game. It is in a company's interest to encourage that rather than discourage it.

 

the fact is that saying that 'gear is the customization' is silly. Gear is a degree of customization that has been in D1 and D2, it hasnt changed, or become more customizing.

Figuring out what to put on your bar or what ability to use against what boss was there before, and has not become particularly more detailed of a choice. Possibly less interesting as the versatility of the bar is greatly diminished.

 

There is not point where you can take your high level character and in 10-15 seconds be exactly the same as the next high level character. This makes the idea of playing through the game on the same class less interesting overall. At no point are you driving home from work wondering 'I wonder how I would build a paladin based around sacred hammer' or the like. Overall your character feels less yours, and less interesting for it.

 

The overall trend in gaming is to move away from relevant permanent choices, as sometimes people regret them. But those are exactly the sort of choices a lot of players enjoy, as they are choices with meaning, and give a player a feeling of ownership with the character.

 

Long story short, its somewhat more interesting to have a 'level 84 cold orb sorceer' than a 'level 84 wizard'. Something has been lost. That doesnt mean the game will be bad, but in this way, it will be less than D2 was.

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Anyone going to be playing hardcore mode? The best experience IMO. Not many people seem to be on board with that though.

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Anyone going to be playing hardcore mode? The best experience IMO. Not many people seem to be on board with that though.

 

I have never been a huge fan of hardcore mode in games.

I would generally prefer to have a game that is difficult through normal means, rather than forced difficulty.

I've played a lot of rougelike games where its more common, and bad lag or dumb luck has usually been the end of hardcore type games for me.

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I'm going to be playing the hell out of this when it's released. The character advancement system where you can't cripple yourself is good design, and allows for some cool gameplay. There are still tons of customization options on how to set up your character and play it. You can even try out different power combinations to switch things up, to either just try a new style or fit with a group better.

 

And for all the guys who are all "We gamed uphill both ways, in the snow, and we liked it!", I'm going to keep having fun and you can't stop me. :)

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I will be playing a bit of Hardcore if that option is still available.

 

I've always done both.

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I'm going to keep having fun and you can't stop me.

 

You voluntarily play EVE, your opinion on video games is invalid.

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Everyone who bitched here who comes back and bitches more later, bans.

 

Xoxo

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You voluntarily play EVE, your opinion on video games is invalid.

 

snicker

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No such thing as customization if your character has everything. Runes are just skills within skills (skillception?). They still unlock one at a time at certain levels the same way as skills do. They're no different than swapping to a different skill, frankly.

 

That's great that the game levels up your attributes for you so you can't screw up. Might as well have Call of Duty games change to 'auto-headshot' because, y'know, you wouldn't want to take a chance at messing up and learning from your mistakes... It's more fun that way right? In fact, let's just simplify all FPS games to give you all free headshots whenever you pull the trigger. There's customization, though! You get to pick any weapon you want to get your 1-hit kill with.

 

Oh, and Halo? Why not just have players start with every weapon. There's no need for players to go find weapons on the level, that's way too complex.

 

Fallout, too. We'll just take out ammo because reloading takes away from gameplay time. We need more explosions! Buy a premium account and double your fire speed with the Fat Man!

 

This is the direction games are going lately. I don't like it. They aren't just doing it to new fresh games; now they're butchering games I had faith in. That's what D3 feels like to me and why it annoys me.

 

It's more than just gameplay mechanics. It's this stupid idea that oversimplification in games is what people want.

Game designers! Stop catering to casual gamers and give me some depth, for crying out loud.

 

/endrant

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It's more than just gameplay mechanics. It's this stupid idea that oversimplification in games is what people want.

Game designers! Stop catering to casual gamers and give me some depth, for crying out loud.

 

 

Unfortunately, for every gamer that really enjoys a hard game and takes the time to understand the nuances, there are a dozen kids that just want to play the next cool thing, and need it dumbed down.

The more popular and mainstream gaming gets, the more simplified and casual its getting.

 

In the end, sales numbers go up when games get dumbed down. I dont expect it to change sadly.

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You voluntarily play EVE, your opinion on video games is invalid.

 

I'm still having fun there, too. Just this week I'm joining a new corp and alliance with a stronger focus on PVP combat, so I can go forth to crush more hopes and dreams.

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No such thing as customization if your character has everything. Runes are just skills within skills (skillception?). They still unlock one at a time at certain levels the same way as skills do. They're no different than swapping to a different skill, frankly.

 

The customization comes with trying out new combinations of powers and runes. You can't have everything at the same time.

 

It's more than just gameplay mechanics. It's this stupid idea that oversimplification in games is what people want.

Game designers! Stop catering to casual gamers and give me some depth, for crying out loud.

 

Honestly, you guys make me laugh. I'm just going to go ahead and say you wouldn't know good game design if it bit you on the ass. What you call oversimplification, I call more interesting decision points during actual game play. I think game designers know their target audiences, and they're doing a good job. If you want to play Dwarf Fortress that's cool, go play Dwarf Fortress. Dwarf Fortress has a ton of depth and doesn't cater to casual gamers. I'll be over here playing Diablo 3 and loving it.

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f you want to play Dwarf Fortress that's cool, go play Dwarf Fortress. Dwarf Fortress has a ton of depth and doesn't cater to casual gamers. I'll be over here playing Diablo 3 and loving it.

 

Sure, that makes perfect sense. I'll just keep playing the same game my entire life. Problem solved! Thanks!

 

 

 

There are examples of games that have used simplification to make a better and more balanced game: ie. Civilizations V.

 

I think you're not understanding where I'm coming from, there. I find this even more odd coming from an Eve player.

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I like EVE, but it's not going to fun for everyone. Also, I don't want every game to be EVE. There are lots of games out there targeted at non-casual gamers, so if that's what you want then go and play them. I don't see why there's so much crying about games like Diablo 3. Blizzard has proved over and over again that they know what they're doing, and they keep delivering quality games.

 

Not only do I disagree with the assessment that the style of D3 is "dumbed down" compared to D2, I think it's laughable about how the armchair experts come out of the woodwork. Anyone who knows how to design games better than Blizzard should get a kickstarter going and make their own games. You'll be rich before you know it.

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I like EVE, but it's not going to fun for everyone. Also, I don't want every game to be EVE. There are lots of games out there targeted at non-casual gamers, so if that's what you want then go and play them. I don't see why there's so much crying about games like Diablo 3. Blizzard has proved over and over again that they know what they're doing, and they keep delivering quality games.

 

Not only do I disagree with the assessment that the style of D3 is "dumbed down" compared to D2, I think it's laughable about how the armchair experts come out of the woodwork. Anyone who knows how to design games better than Blizzard should get a kickstarter going and make their own games. You'll be rich before you know it.

 

I have never implied that blizzard will not make D3 commercially successful.

Wow has proven that aiming for a more casual audience makes a more commercially successful game.

I think the point Dren and I are making is that games as a whole are aiming for more and more casual audiences, and D3 seems to be following that mold.

I think its safe that diablo 3 will not have the kind of lasting playerbase 12 years after its release that D2 enjoyes. D3 will probably sell more copies in the store though.

 

D3 is dumbed down in some ways. Its not completely beaten with the stupid stick, and it will still probably be lots of fun to play through. I just dont see myself reinstalling it again in 5 years to play through one more time.

No matter how many ways you try to insult our opinion by calling us armchair experts and how we need to design a successful game before we can form an opinion on this one, our thoughts are every bit as valid as your own.

 

It used to be that they would make the game accessible to casual audiences, but the hard stuff would require knowing what the hell you are doing to succeed. Nowadays, all you need are warm bodies. IE, anyone could beat Diablo 2, but you had to have a reasonable idea how to play the game to beat it on Hell difficulty.

 

In D2, you used to have access to a wide variety of skills for different occasions, specializing in the ones you thought most useful through skill points, and knowing what to use and when mid fight was important. The amount of character building options were greater, with the caveat that you could make a 'bad' character. The amount of in-combat options was significant, and at your fingertips at all times.

In D3, you will have access to no more than 6 skills at a time, and each one is a different category, so really you have access to one charge skill, one high damage skill, and several cooldowns. Rune customization ammounts to 'more damage' or 'more mana' or the like without meaningfully changing the actual skill for usually all but 1 rune in the options generally, so customization is even more limited than it appears at first glance. And in-combat decision making has been basically reduced to 'right click till you are out of [resource], left click till you get it back. click cooldowns as they come up.'. This feels less compelling to me and many others, than its predecessor.

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There have been some boasts by the developers that the hardest difficulty will take months to beat, and that this game is going to require a lot more coordination and tactics.

 

I think the lack of stats or skill trees is a valid complaint in some cases, but saying this game has been dumbed down or made easier than D2 is silly. Diablo 2 was a great game with so much replayability because of all the randomness to it. Random level generator, random loot drops, random monster encounters, etc. The stat points and the skill trees were not complex, and were very accessible to casual players, and the amount of powers that one character could cast pales in comparison to what looks to be available in Diablo 3.

 

Let's take Diablo 2 off of the pedestal and stop pretending like it was some incredibly difficult and complex game like Dwarf Fortress. Millions of people have played it, enjoyed it, and beat it with ease. If Diablo 3 has become more like WoW, then all that means is that this game is going to include more strategy, because WoW is certainly a harder game than Diablo 2 ever was.

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There have been some boasts by the developers that the hardest difficulty will take months to beat, and that this game is going to require a lot more coordination and tactics.

 

I think the lack of stats or skill trees is a valid complaint in some cases, but saying this game has been dumbed down or made easier than D2 is silly. Diablo 2 was a great game with so much replayability because of all the randomness to it. Random level generator, random loot drops, random monster encounters, etc. The stat points and the skill trees were not complex, and were very accessible to casual players, and the amount of powers that one character could cast pales in comparison to what looks to be available in Diablo 3.

 

Let's take Diablo 2 off of the pedestal and stop pretending like it was some incredibly difficult and complex game like Dwarf Fortress. Millions of people have played it, enjoyed it, and beat it with ease. If Diablo 3 has become more like WoW, then all that means is that this game is going to include more strategy, because WoW is certainly a harder game than Diablo 2 ever was.

 

I am glad to hear that harder difficultys are actually hard. the 'default' difficulty in the beta left me quite worried, it was honestly hard to die. I dont recall managing it even once, though there was one named dude that required a lot of running away to not die.

 

I also disagree that the ammount of powers 'pales in comparison'. its roughly similar in terms of overall skills per class, with talents vs runes to customize. In D2 you could use more than one 'attack' or 'defense' skill during a single fight. Overall, it feels like less skills, not more due to limitations of usage. But of course, it was just a beta.

 

That said, Wow is not hard. And every patch got easier, at least till I stopped playing. Last time I played the lich king dungeon was at like +30% damage/healing or something silly just to be sure that any 10 person pug could make it through. And I've seen some really really really terrible players that had beaten said content. At some distant past in wow, there was content that was accessible to any pugtard, and content that required a coordinated group/guild to complete. That was not the case when I left. Solo content was even worse, an endless parade of 'press 1 a lot, 2 if you felt like it, but you really dont have to unless you are doing a 'suggested 4' quest or something'. I mean my character had other skills, and I'd like to say I used them, but there was nothing in the solo game even the remotest bit challenging. Again, this was not always the case. Nothing in wow when I stopped playing was as difficulty as playing through hell difficulty in diablo 2, I actually feared enemys and died now and then. I personally enjoy the feeling of triumphing over difficult enemys, contrary to popular game design, challenge is actually fun for some.

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Never said WoW was hard. But if you found Diablo 2 Hell difficulty more challenging than raiding in WoW, then I guess it's a good thing they are assigning your stats for you in D3. :P

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Never said WoW was hard. But if you found Diablo 2 Hell difficulty more challenging than raiding in WoW, then I guess it's a good thing they are assigning your stats for you in D3. :P

 

It really depends on the timeframe. Vanilla had some challenge, but raiding was new, and organizing 40 people was tricky, burning crusade had a lot of challenge, early lich king was challenging, but it kept going downhill during lich king. C'thun was hard, but the trials were farmable pretty much day 1. While lich king was hard when it first came out, but the rest of the instance was pretty easy, and the constant progressive buff made even the king trivial pretty quickly.

 

Maybe it got harder in cataclysm, but the nauseatingly tedious leveling and complete lack of difficulty made me finally realize the game had become a chore rather than a challenge, and so I stopped playing before I got into cata raiding. D2 hell difficulty was hard on a character that wasnt handed down baal run loots or the like, nasty named critters would kill you, some dungeons would be hard, and sometimes you would need to go level, or find specialized resist loots, adapt a different strategy with your skill choices, or otherwise re-prepare for a hard fight. I suppose it isnt really a lot harder, but it sure wasnt any easier either. I mean unless you are comparing it to sunwell raiding or something, that shit was hard. And fun.

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ok ive been holding my tongue for a while now. i approve of the approch blizzard is taking with d3. in d2 yes i was given a bunch of options to "custimize" my build but i never had the interest in playing the same class with a different build. yes i messed up and made bad builds that resulted in me scrapping the charector and beginning anew but it irritated me greatly having to start over and play through everything again cause i messed up my build. i bet ya a vast majority of the players were using builds that someone else created and put up on the internet anyways so blizzards approch isnt going to change the grand scheme of things much.

 

also remember guys your basing your judgments on a beta. betas by all rights are going to be a bit different then the final released game. some things are going to be missing from the beta and some things are going to be taken away from it. i am going to reserve my judgement of the game till after i have played the finished product.

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