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Dren Ollevres

DIABLO III

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I'll let D3 play out as is without bickering anymore. I feel satisfied knowing Bill and I share views on this and that I'm not crazy in being mildly disappointed. My expectations were too damn high!

 

Yeah, standing apart from original expectations, D3 is alright. I'll probably play it until Torchlight 2 comes out. By definition, the skill choices... not skill use... (and as a result, variation of attributes on items) is what has been dumbed down. You can't argue against that because there are no skill "choices". You simply get them all as you level, runes included. I've boiled it down to this being my only true issue with the game. And no, just because we only played the beta doesn't mean this is going to change; it's a core mechanic to gameplay.

 

Things like skill synergies from the D2 expansion I really liked and unfortunately you can't do that in D3 anymore. Sue me for being nostalgic. Even if they just gave us a talent tree separate from the skills, I'd be happy.

 

It's not like it's going to be a terrible game, it's just eliminating the possibility for things I find fun in most games. I like making 'builds'. I like having to adapt my strategy because of choices I made early in the game. And most of all, I like making themed characters. My favorite thing I did with Diablo 2 was make a poison-javalin amazon that would deal something like 83K damage in one hit. It sucked in every other way, but it was fun to push the limits of the game. Just feels like character development is on rails, is all.

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We all fall victim to nostalgia. I think us nerds especially have it bad for "that game" we played a lot when we were younger.

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Dumbed Down customization doesn't mean a bad or easy game. Everyone seems confused with drens statements. A game can be completely guided AND extremely difficult. The game will be fun and I will buy it because it is Diablo.It doesn't mean. Choices weren't taken from the player, which I don't like.

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Honestly, you guys make me laugh. I'm just going to go ahead and say you wouldn't know good game design if it bit you on the ass. What you call oversimplification, I call more interesting decision points during actual game play. I think game designers know their target audiences, and they're doing a good job. If you want to play Dwarf Fortress that's cool, go play Dwarf Fortress. Dwarf Fortress has a ton of depth and doesn't cater to casual gamers. I'll be over here playing Diablo 3 and loving it.

 

I just love this type of reaction...

 

Clearly, the only games that are any good, are the ones you think are good. Anyone else, doesn't understand a good game when they see one. You defend Eve the same way that we defend D2, so I feel as though your just trying to mind fuck us into agreeing with your logic.

 

You like games that hand you everything, with a very linear design. You can just play from beginning to end without getting butthurt over all the other people pwning your designs and such. There's nothing wrong with that, but don't give us some bullshit argument and put us down, to try and defend yourself. Just say what you really want to. "I like these kinda games better."... Don't criticize us for our thoughts.

 

We're just disappointed because we had much different expectations. I'm assuming everyone here will play it, and will enjoy it. Whether we enjoy it as much as D2 was the concern.

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Nah, I like games that are fun (for me) to play. If I find that a game is not fun to play (for me) then I play something else, instead of lamenting that the game industry's sky is falling because a game designer failed in his duty to make a game that I liked. It sounds like a lot of you think that Blizzard owes you something with Diablo 3, and you're butthurt that that didn't deliver. That's the part that makes me roll my eyes and laugh.

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Nah, I like games that are fun (for me) to play. If I find that a game is not fun to play (for me) then I play something else, instead of lamenting that the game industry's sky is falling because a game designer failed in his duty to make a game that I liked. It sounds like a lot of you think that Blizzard owes you something with Diablo 3, and you're butthurt that that didn't deliver. That's the part that makes me roll my eyes and laugh.

 

We will all play or not play a game for as long (or short) as we find it interesting, thats sort of a given.

 

Having an opinion (that is different than yours) is not the same as feeling that I am owed something. Posting an opinion on a message board unrelated to blizzard is not lamenting any form of falling sky. At the end of the day, some of us have different opinions of the game than yours. We posted it. Your aggressive stance is unlikely to make us change them, the only thing that may do that is playing the full game, which I am pretty sure everyone posting on this thread is planning to do.

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Ya, we are all butt hurt. That's the problem. How about you take your snide condescending remarks else where. You must be right obviously. The fact we are sharing our opinion in an open forum MUST mean that we are all required to feel the same way. You laugh because you think something completely wrong. We laugh because you are making yourself out to be an ass. Enjoy your day genius.

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Arguing With Bob On The Internet: The Rebirth.

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Arguing With Bob On The Internet: The Rebirth.

 

I'm not even trying to be a troll, although my politeness filters have been a little more relaxed the last couple of weeks. I guess the negativity set me off.

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D3 comes out tomorrow! Who else is excited? My blizzard email account whatever is Molydeus85@yahoo.com. Friend me when the game comes out. :)

 

 

For the naysayers:Diablo 3's "lack of customization" lololol pwned

 

 

 

 

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D3 comes out tomorrow! Who else is excited? My blizzard email account whatever is Molydeus85@yahoo.com. Friend me when the game comes out. :)

 

 

For the naysayers:Diablo 3's "lack of customization" lololol pwned

 

 

 

 

 

I too will be picking it up, though I wont be playing it at midnight because I need to work in the morning. I am looking forward to having fun playing through it.

my email is [---------------] battletag is Oberon#1537, tho theres an ingame name I will edit this post with when I am home and can check. (turns out my old wow authenticator is attached to every blizzard thing, so I have to dig that up again, at least I know where it was from the beta).

 

 

 

ps: comparing 30 D2 skills and ignoring talents, with 25 D3 skills and their various runes doesnt actually prove the point you think it does. Especially when you consider how many more talent combinations were possible than just 6 per skill. (dont get me wrong, many of them were 'deals X more damage or the like, but then so are most of the D3 runes).

 

[edited to put in battletag]

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ps: comparing 30 D2 skills and ignoring talents, with 25 D3 skills and their various runes doesnt actually prove the point you think it does. Especially when you consider how many more talent combinations were possible than just 6 per skill. (dont get me wrong, many of them were 'deals X more damage or the like, but then so are most of the D3 runes).

 

Most of the D3 runes are NOT "deals X more damage". The vast majority of those in D2 were. Even the "synergies" usually just added more damage to other talents.

 

Here's one example of a wizard spell and all of the rune variants: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/class/wizard/active/shock-pulse

 

Not a single one of those runes adds more damage. They turn your simple shock pulse spell into fire, turn it into a lightning creature, into an orb, etc. It proves my point exactly the way I think it does.

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Regardless of those people arguing 3rd edition over 4th edition,

 

I'm super excited about this game. It's about five o'clock EST now, so that's Ten hours till it's live. It'll probably be an undetermined number of hours after that when I get to play it, but yeah, super excited.

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Most of the D3 runes are NOT "deals X more damage". The vast majority of those in D2 were. Even the "synergies" usually just added more damage to other talents.

 

Here's one example of a wizard spell and all of the rune variants: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/class/wizard/active/shock-pulse

 

Not a single one of those runes adds more damage. They turn your simple shock pulse spell into fire, turn it into a lightning creature, into an orb, etc. It proves my point exactly the way I think it does.

 

Even in just the beta there was a cool amount of variety in how to set up the abilities. I didn't really like the shock pulse as much when I first got it because I liked the range of magic missile. Once I got that first rune that makes monsters explode though, I switched to that for popping groups like firecrackers and used my Ray of Frost secondary for long range targets.

 

My email is ubergeek2012@gmail.com, and I'll be on tomorrow sometime late.

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Most of the D3 runes are NOT "deals X more damage". The vast majority of those in D2 were. Even the "synergies" usually just added more damage to other talents.

 

Here's one example of a wizard spell and all of the rune variants: http://us.battle.net...ive/shock-pulse

 

Not a single one of those runes adds more damage. They turn your simple shock pulse spell into fire, turn it into a lightning creature, into an orb, etc. It proves my point exactly the way I think it does.

 

First off, its a terrible terrible skill, I played a wizard, and its just aweful in its base form. But I'll work with it. I assume you picked it because it does have slightly more options (probably due to its terrible base implementation). Its very short ranged, with an erratic attack that makes it more or less impossible to aim. It would be useful if you were surrounded by many melee foes, but if you are as a wizard, you were dead before you got any use out of this skill.

 

 

Explosive Bolts - Slain enemies explode, dealing 70% weapon damage as Lightning to every enemy within 10 yards. - mostly adding damage, tho honestly mostly useless, since its a charge up skill not a 'main attack skill' you wont be killing enemys that matter with this.

 

18 - Fire Bolts - Cast bolts of fire that each deal 137% weapon damage as Fire. - more damage. Literally, 37% more damage. and its colored red not purple.

33 - Piercing Orb - Merge the bolts in a a single giant orb that oscillates forward dealing 105% weapon damage as Lightning to everything it hits. - slightly more damage with a pierce effect, but the really short short range again makes me wonder if you will ever even notice it hitting two enemys, never mind more than that.

47 - Lightning Affinity - Every target hit by a pulse restores 2 Arcane Power.- useful effect, makes the charging effect more noticable. Every single 'charge power' has this rune. Its not plus damage, but its generic across the board.

54 - Living Lightning - Conjure a being of lightning that drifts forward, electrocuting nearby enemies for 37% weapon damage as Lightning. - I'd have to see it to understand, but it sounds really similar to the base spell 'effect drifts forward and hurts nearby enemys' vs '3 effects randomly drift forward and deal damage to hit targets' . Maybe it moves quicker or something, but again, it might be slightly differently graphically, but the spell will feel the same to play with.

 

Overall, there still isnt anything that actually changes the usage of the skill in truely significant ways. Certainly no more significant than the skill trees in D2.

 

Magic missile, by contrast, is a skill you will use, its a basic 'point and click damage' spell. Its more clearly a lot of differently flavored +damage.

 

 

6 - Charged Blast - Increases the damage of Magic Missile to 143% weapon damage as Arcane. - straight plus damage.

13 - Split - Fire 3 missiles that each deal 50% weapon damage as Arcane. - its point and click, the bolts all hit. there is no difference in 3 50 damage bolts and 1 150 damage bolt other than aesthetics.

31 - Penetrating Blast - Missiles have a 70% chance to pierce through their target and hit additional enemies. - the penetration option, I can see this actually changing up the spell some.

42 - Attunement - Whenever Magic Missile hits a target you gain 4 Arcane Power. - the standard +mana effect one.

52 - Seeker - Missiles track the nearest enemy and their damage is increased to 121% weapon damage as Arcane. - more damage, and a seek effect, but the missile was very accurate when I played the beta, so I'm not sure how different that will be.

 

And really, I'm just bored at work, as thats all minutia, avoiding the point.

 

The point is comparing D2 skills with no talent options vs D3 skills with their parallel of runes, is silly. At which point you are looking at 25 base skills vs 30 base skills. Honestly, I dont see how having a lot more of them would make much difference. I'm just sad that I cant combo them in D3 with anywhere near the facility D2 had. For example, even if I somehow liked charged bolt, I couldnt use it at the same time as magic missile because blizzard thinks that I am too dumb to decide that on my own.

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The point is comparing D2 skills with no talent options vs D3 skills with their parallel of runes, is silly. At which point you are looking at 25 base skills vs 30 base skills. Honestly, I dont see how having a lot more of them would make much difference. I'm just sad that I cant combo them in D3 with anywhere near the facility D2 had. For example, even if I somehow liked charged bolt, I couldnt use it at the same time as magic missile because blizzard thinks that I am too dumb to decide that on my own.

 

Last I checked, people who prefer Diablo 2 can still play it. It seems to me that would be a better option than trying to poop on Diablo 3.

 

As for me, I'm going to play Diablo 3 with the rest of the dumb people.

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Overall, there still isnt anything that actually changes the usage of the skill in truely significant ways. Certainly no more significant than the skill trees in D2.

 

 

The point is comparing D2 skills with no talent options vs D3 skills with their parallel of runes, is silly. At which point you are looking at 25 base skills vs 30 base skills. Honestly, I dont see how having a lot more of them would make much difference. I'm just sad that I cant combo them in D3 with anywhere near the facility D2 had. For example, even if I somehow liked charged bolt, I couldnt use it at the same time as magic missile because blizzard thinks that I am too dumb to decide that on my own.

 

http://classic.battle.net/diablo2exp/skills/ Go here and remind yourself what Diablo 2 actually was. I think it has been too long since you've last played it. Please find any skill where putting talent points into it did anything other than improving the stats of that skill. Anything where putting a talent point made the skill into something else entirely. Saying that this comparison is not considering the talent trees makes no sense, because the talents only improved the skills, not made them different.

 

The "point" was that there are way, way more skills in Diablo 3 than in Diablo 2, and that fact still remains. Saying that shock pulse without runes (which works the same way as charged bolt did in D2) is not significantly different from summoning a lightning creature is what's silly.

 

I think after we all get to play the game tomorrow, things will make more sense and there will be less false assumptions made. I'll let the game speak for itself soon. :P

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Last I checked, people who prefer Diablo 2 can still play it. It seems to me that would be a better option than trying to poop on Diablo 3.

 

As for me, I'm going to play Diablo 3 with the rest of the dumb people.

 

I'm not saying it wont be good. I'm not saying people who play it are dumb. I do think that Blizzard has dumbed down the game a bit. I will buy it and play it, and I rather expect I will enjoy it.

I dont care how many ways people call me dumb for thinking that it has taken some backwards steps in design for D2, I will continue to believe it until I play the game and feel otherwise. So far the beta has not left that impression.

 

I have been polite, if unchanging in my opinion, I'm sorry that offends some, but snide remarks and excessive condescending attitudes certainly aren't going to sway me better than the actual good in depth replies that have occurred.

 

I expect it will be a fun game, and I will play it through and enjoy it. and in 5 or 10 years if I'm in the mood for some diablo-esque fun, theres at least even odds I'll go back to D2 rather than D3.

 

ps: in D2 there is a difference between charged bolt sending out 3 bolts and it sending out 22. Yes, most of the specific effects were built into the skill points, but many of them had a very different feel at different point levels, and you did not have the points to cap out every skill. Its probably fair to say that almost every skill in D2 incorporates at least two runes in D3. A paladin (again my most played class in D2) had a pretty big difference between 1 point or two in zeal, 5-6 points in zeal, and maxing zeal. Charge and vengeance, each point was a toss up between more damage in return for maintaining a good mana usage, just maxing them was not always the best path, especially with all the different auras, all useful in different ways that could really use those points. Its fair to say that skill choices were plenty complex in D2.

 

But again, the biggest worry I have with D3 is the limitation of 'categories', which, for all the people going on about runes vs skills points (I happen to disagree with the opinion that runes are more complex than skills though, certainly, but its at least in the ball park), isnt what bothers me the most (I think its what worries Dren the most though). I havent seen a good explanation for why that aspect is so needlessly limited. Why I cannot have both frost beam and arcane orb on my bar so I can react to single target threats and aoe threats for example. Complex tactical choice in combat felt very limited compared to the predecessor. I am hoping that having the other 3 categories unlocked with help that, but so far it did not feel that way in the beta.

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I re-purchased Diablo 2 a couple of months ago. It lost something from when I was ten or else I just couldn't get into it with kids all over the place. Either way I am looking forward to purchasing the game tonight or tomorrow.

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ps: in D2 there is a difference between charged bolt sending out 3 bolts and it sending out 22. Yes, most of the specific effects were built into the skill points, but many of them had a very different feel at different point levels, and you did not have the points to cap out every skill. Its probably fair to say that almost every skill in D2 incorporates at least two runes in D3. A paladin (again my most played class in D2) had a pretty big difference between 1 point or two in zeal, 5-6 points in zeal, and maxing zeal. Charge and vengeance, each point was a toss up between more damage in return for maintaining a good mana usage, just maxing them was not always the best path, especially with all the different auras, all useful in different ways that could really use those points. Its fair to say that skill choices were plenty complex in D2.

 

 

There is no "runes vs skill points" argument. I'm not sure why you keep comparing them as if they were equivalent concepts. Assigning a skill point increases damage/duration/radius or rarely, the number of things you are casting. Runes transform your ability into a new ability. I can't speak to your other concern, about not being able to have two spells hotkeyed at the same time, but that's not relevant to the post I made that you responded to.

 

You have not successfully refuted this fact: http://imgur.com/PSgup I'm not going to argue about any of the tangents you managed to bring up, but it's impossible to say that choosing to make your fireball spell weaker by putting less points into it is the same as changing your fireball spell into a lightning storm spell or some other thing entirely. The irrefutable fact is that Diablo 3 has more variety in what you can do, as evident in that picture I posted.

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I'm not saying it wont be good. I'm not saying people who play it are dumb. I do think that Blizzard has dumbed down the game a bit. I will buy it and play it, and I rather expect I will enjoy it.

I dont care how many ways people call me dumb for thinking that it has taken some backwards steps in design for D2, I will continue to believe it until I play the game and feel otherwise. So far the beta has not left that impression.

 

I have been polite, if unchanging in my opinion, I'm sorry that offends some, but snide remarks and excessive condescending attitudes certainly aren't going to sway me better than the actual good in depth replies that have occurred.

 

Ok, I'm gonna ease up. I may have been reading more into what you were saying than was actually there, and my reaction against internet negative nancies was aimed at you a bit unfairly.

 

 

You have not successfully refuted this fact: http://imgur.com/PSgup I'm not going to argue about any of the tangents you managed to bring up, but it's impossible to say that choosing to make your fireball spell weaker by putting less points into it is the same as changing your fireball spell into a lightning storm spell or some other thing entirely. The irrefutable fact is that Diablo 3 has more variety in what you can do, as evident in that picture I posted.

 

To be fair to Bill, that image doesn't show how different the abilities really get in play. The proof will be in the pudding, delicious bloody pudding.

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There is no "runes vs skill points" argument. I'm not sure why you keep comparing them as if they were equivalent concepts. Assigning a skill point increases damage/duration/radius or rarely, the number of things you are casting. Runes transform your ability into a new ability. I can't speak to your other concern, about not being able to have two spells hotkeyed at the same time, but that's not relevant to the post I made that you responded to.

 

You have not successfully refuted this fact: http://imgur.com/PSgup I'm not going to argue about any of the tangents you managed to bring up, but it's impossible to say that choosing to make your fireball spell weaker by putting less points into it is the same as changing your fireball spell into a lightning storm spell or some other thing entirely. The irrefutable fact is that Diablo 3 has more variety in what you can do, as evident in that picture I posted.

 

Runes are the way you customize your character in D3. Skill points were how you did it in D2. I dont see how you cant compare the two. Certainly most of the rest of the internet has. There are clearly large differences between them, but they are the closest analogs to compare.

 

There is as much difference. just a different sort :)

mechanically speaking, D2 and skill points had a larger impact on the skill.

 

Visually speaking, D3 runes have a larger impact.

 

There are a few outliers, but in general, its different looks for the exact same or roughly the same effect. Turning your charged bolts from 3 bolts that go randomly in front of you to a 'spirit that drifts in front of you' isnt really going to change how that spell works, ie, short range aoe lightning damage. The damage of which is basically set by your level (gear level technically, but they go hand in hand). In D2, putting skill points in different ways could really affect how your character played in a non visual sense. Careful use of skill points could make a character better or worse, and you had to make choices, ie do I put every possible point I can into charged bolt and its synergies, or maybe stop somewhere and get a fireball. Having +skill gear, of different trees, or all skills or the like let you tweak these numbers even more. You could build the 'stock frozen orb sorc', and they functioned just fine, dont get me wrong, but you could also do a lot more with skill points as well, and have access to both a lightning bolt and a fireball for example, at the same time even, unlike in D3. In D3 its all 'left click do the same base damage as everyone else of the same gear level, while charging a resource, right click to deal a larger amount of gear level mandated damage', and the choices all felt cosmetic.

 

I have never said that Runes dont make the spells look different, heck even the +damage ones change up the graphics some, but visuals are fun and all, but underlying gameplay has always been more interesting to me. I dislike the loss of skill trees, I somewhat lament the fact that as a whole the games industry has been changing to a more mainstream thing. I get the why, back when D1 came out, it wasnt a big market, even the big name games didnt sell a fraction of what the small titles sell now, gaming has gone to a larger audience, and that means making the games simpler and more forgiving. Most of the casual customers dont want to have to worry about detailed skill trees and understanding how they worked, they didnt want to risk making poor choices and feeling like they want to start over to fix them. But some of us like the fiddly bits and the mechanics underneath.

 

Think of it kind of like the difference in buying a computer. do you enjoy researching each component, buying all the right pieces to work together, then making a very solid efficient computer? Or do you prefer picking over the latest Dell alienware line for which one has coolest lights on the sides or games preloaded? Neither is wrong, but the ones who prefer one type will see the other as inherently less interesting

 

I'm not completely convinced the runes wont at least give the illusion of personalizing, but in the beta it certainly felt like a simpler level than the skill trees were, even if it looks better.

 

Either way I'm bored, and still have at least an hour before I can realistically go pick up the game, sigh :P

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HAHA You guys are all so funny. I'm gonna click stuff till it dies.

 

 

I click all the Things til it dies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Runes are the way you customize your character in D3. Skill points were how you did it in D2. I dont see how you cant compare the two. Certainly most of the rest of the internet has. There are clearly large differences between them, but they are the closest analogs to compare.

 

There is as much difference. just a different sort :)

mechanically speaking, D2 and skill points had a larger impact on the skill.

 

Visually speaking, D3 runes have a larger impact.

 

 

 

You really need to go read about these runes. First you say that the majority of the runes simply give +damage like in D2, and now you're saying the only major difference is visual. Not sure why you want to believe what you believe, but its preventing you from learning about this new game.

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