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NarenZade

Resilience and Kazvaks

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You have Resilience active.

You are Blunted Down.

A Kazvak counts to 60 and eats your heart.

Do you die or call No Effect?

 

According to Resilience it makes you immune to Killing Blow and Reap Spirit. Neither of these are the Kazvaks special ability. So what happens?

 

My understanding is the Kazvak would eat your spark, but I'd like to make sure.

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My fault for raising this question really. My understanding is that for the duration of the spell or until dispelled you would call "No Effect" to "Eating Heart" count, since it's reduced to blunt damage and can't actually kill you. Cant eat through a chest with blunted fangs, right? I could be wrong. Thought I heard that somewhere from someone.

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I'm waiting on confirmation from Dan, but several rules members have informed me that you are correct Al.

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Yes, I believe "Immune to reap spirit" is the same as "Can't be kazvak'd or ooze'd"

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I believe the Kazvak KB's you when it starts eating your heart. Since it cannot KB you it cannot start doing the count down (it cannot get to your heart)

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Yes, I believe "Immune to reap spirit" is the same as "Can't be kazvak'd or ooze'd"

 

So a Medium 3 cannot be killed by a Kazvak or Ooze?

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The way I thought about it was Pat's way. You cant be KBed and they cant eat your heart until you are.

 

Also, Would that stop an Ooze from dissolving your gear and items even if they could not dissolve you?

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I believe the Kazvak KB's you when it starts eating your heart. Since it cannot KB you it cannot start doing the count down (it cannot get to your heart)

 

Not to get too far off topic, but how does Second Breath interact with a Kazvak? If it KBs you at the start could you, say, wait for the kazvak to get to 59, pop back to life and start stabbing? Or is the KB at the end of the count and it's a combo KB/You're Screwed effect and Second Breath is about as useful as duck nipples?

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All I read was "blah blah duck nipples".

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The ooze wont dissolve you since it can only "blunt" damage you, its not doing any permanent harm.

 

On 2nd breath question. The kazvak KBs you once he starts his count, you can second breath any time you want during it and start stabbing, admittedly it might just kill you again and start eating.

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All I read was "blah blah duck nipples".

 

So I should be paying attention to the second breath/ kazvak question but now I too am just reading "blah blah blah duck nipples"

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EDIT: This is being discussed in rules at the moment, but these are my first impressions:

 

The rules for Kasvak say nothing about it reaping spirits. It just kills you (counts as a killing blow) and you can't be revived. It's very clear about this.

 

Resilience makes you immune to KBs. So logically, if you can't be KBd then you can't be affected by an Ooze or Kasvak until the spell wears off. I think that's fine.

 

If you're immune to Reap Spirit, via any of the 10+ ways to stop reap spirit, tough shit. Kasvaks don't reap. smile.gif

 

This is going strictly by the way the rules are written today. I think it's fine.

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My question still stands about the Ooze though, Because a Ooze destroys items as well, Would your items be dissolved after the 60 count even though your body is fine?

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I vote yes; your items are not Resilient. [<----NOT ON RULES. But this is where my logical brain goes...]

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I vote yes; your items are not Resilient. [<----NOT ON RULES. But this is where my logical brain goes...]

 

I agree. Which is why im asking the question.

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That's a tough one.

 

My unofficial suggestion would be that Resilience prevents the prerequisite necessary for the ooze's ability to trigger, therefore they couldn't begin the count until the effect of Resilience expires. (You could even say that every "no effect" would reset the count to 0, if you want to be technical about it.)

 

Though not finalized, one could also argue that the items would be fine because the spell affects the entirety of you. This is due to the direction spells have been going in lately...

 

Case examples: Abomination affects all of you, even your armor (read: items), as does Shadowskin and spells like Anti Magic Aura.

 

There are item-specific spells such as the ones that target just Shields, Weapons, or Armor... but in general if something affects 'you' it also affects what you're wearing.

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By this logic, Poison Immunity also makes you immune to the effects of an Ooze. Logically, it's the Acid call that dissolves a player and their items. So being immune to Acid via Poison Immunity makes you Immune to the perma-death ability of the Ooze, right?

 

Follow up, Shadowskin makes you immune to the Kazvak and Ooze Perma-death effects right?

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It just starts counting when on a dead victim. Its not a. Damage call or spell like a reap. While poison immunity means you cant be hurt by the oozes acid if an ooze finds a corpse it doesnt matter what spells they have up. Same with kazvak and handler vs shadow skin. If the handler has enchant weapon and kbs the shadowskin person the kazvak can start eating.

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It just starts counting when on a dead victim. Its not a. Damage call or spell like a reap. While poison immunity means you cant be hurt by the oozes acid if an ooze finds a corpse it doesnt matter what spells they have up. Same with kazvak and handler vs shadow skin. If the handler has enchant weapon and kbs the shadowskin person the kazvak can start eating.

 

I'd agree with you except: rules.

 

There is a general consensus leaning towards 2 prerequisites needing to be met for Kazvak + Ooze abilities. 1.) target must be dead by any means possible (e.g. resilience, aka anti-KB, would prevent this for 10 min), 2.) target must be able to suffer melee damage from the monster (e.g. oozes deal acid and kazvaks deal normal damage... so poison immunity would stop an Ooze and Shadowskin would stop a Kazvak for 10 minutes).

 

This isn't official, but this is what's shakin' in the background while we speculate in the foreground.

 

With that said, for anyone who's had a kazvak start counting over them... you know you're pretty well screwed. Even surviving for what's left of your 10 minute spell might not save you if you get dropped on a trail by a Kazvak.

 

PS. Pat, I thought you were on rules ;)

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Our game lacks the lethality it once boasted. While as GMs it's bad form to torpedo our PCs with suicide NPCs lacking self preservation and a loaded with a perfect stat set to get the kill (all things I strongly agree with), it's another to continue to improve defenses and make PVE PC death a once every 4-5 year occurrence.

 

I believe much of this is the an unconscious response by Rules to compensate for over zealous NPCs who, without specific GM instruction, default to attempting to "win". These attempts may come in the form of suicide tactics, stating themselves for maximum efficiency in a manner that can only be described after the fact as metagaming, and not actually carrying the props or using their allotted power for the buffs they claim to have up.

 

I know this is not the core subject of the thread. It feels relevant to this discussion, IMO.

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Okay, i dont want this to come across as anything other than polite disagreement, but I gotta say, I disagree totally that NPCs are over zealous. NPCs haven't permakilled a PC in years, and have how many permakills ever, 3? I mean, NPCs barely ever make off with any loot when they do down someone, and even then, it's typically back in game in an event or 2.

 

There have been a few encounters I've been a part of where NPCs have killed many PCs at once. I can't speak to the plague temple attack since I was PCing, but the two I was an NPC for, Npcs didn't reap a single spark, only modestly looted the PCs, and then went somewhere obvious to be rolled when the town got its act together.

 

I also don't see where NPCs determine their own stats in a meta gaming fashion. 99% of the time, Npcs are given stats by their GM. If you are talking about how they buff themselves, or tactics they employ, I think I'd need to hear some specifics before agreeing that any meta gaming problem exists.

 

I would additionally encourage direct instruction from a GM if an NPC party is ever supposed to NOT use every tool at its disposal to accomplish the character's purported goal. One has to assume that when sent to the town as a gang of pissed off undead, or bandits, or dark fae, or orcs, one's goal is to kill everything in sight.

 

This really feels like a separate discussion to me?

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Rules don't change until Feb feast, Just because we are discussing it in the background doesn't alter the core rules here when players ask questions. Just because people agree on the change doesn't make suddenly change it. That's how rules get confusing and lost. At this moment in the rules when a Kazvak has a corpse it can start eating, the only thing it needs to be certain is that person is dead and not wounded. Your not dead with resilience up and you are not dead if something doesn't have a DR to preform a killing blow.

 

P.S Dren, I Thought you understood how rules worked smile.gif

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tumblr_ltf3zdO9SE1qcsp5b.gif

 

 

I agree. The rules don't change until feb feast. However, this isn't a rule change. :)

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All polite here. No heat.

 

I look at it this way: NPCs groups who are not given direct instruction as to the tone of their play default to a "do the best we can" script. They are often vastly outgunned in a single encounter, so they do all they can to put up the best fight possible. In the small picture this feels fine. Across a shift, though, those kind of actions can lead to more heat than a fun shift adds up to. This is where we rely on lead NPCs to manage the groups.

 

The variation of light and heavy encounters then comes down to a GM to regulate. We, for example, can't save all the heaviest or most versatile fights for the last hour of a shift. Neither can we front load a shift with 4-5 big ones. It's part of the job and we do it. Lead NPCs help.

 

The most important part of difficulty and tone regulation comes in when the GM, or Lead NPC coming to get good at anticipating the GM, tells the NPCs what the goal is. Will this be a plot to make the PCs sweat, have an ugly choice, sail through as conquering heroes? In my experience without that guiding principal Players experience NPCs setting up their stats to absolute best effect without any superfluous effects. PCs must prepare for a wide array of threats and scenarios. They think about self preservation. My best experiences have been with Steve M, Prime, Kevin, and a few other notable NPCers who take the time to set the NPC's goals clearly and communicate them with their RP. Those goals don't always default to "get 'em". Orcs, undead, yeah they are killers on legs. I'm not arguing those roles.

 

Our PCs, especially those LONG invested in the game, are involved in Rules and Balance. The game has gotten less lethal.

 

We wanted to avoid drive-by Final Rests because it was too easy for an NPC to use it for a "win" and because PVP had almost zero personal risk for wasting another PC. So we changed it.

 

Second Breath could be beaten by a simple work-around. So we changed it.

 

Players got huge buffs with Crafting skills. They didn't like the idea that what they got in the economy doubling experiment would be taken away. In response to that, and because our mission is to make fun, GMs released every looted weapon back into the wild.

 

I think our attitude as players at large has swayed. We made some big steps toward making it harder with reducing the armor cap (monstrous armor used to cap at 7 with a helmet) and we made a gesture at capping item power with the 20 pt spent item cap... But really, I think we've gotten comfy with the idea that when PCs are at risk the game is being run wrong. Challenge is not the equivalent of fun.

 

I'm not advocating that there is a solution to be had in hammering the PCs and be done with it. I do believe that the PCs as a body expect a different game and might not react as graciously as they think they might if PCs died more often, or if what came out of the economy from looting came even a little closer to what comes in as loot.

 

NPCs feel outgunned. They are. There is little we can do to beef NPCs fairly when there are parties averaging in the low teens and other parties out there in the 110's. Gear also easily doubles some parties effectiveness. As a result: they do all they can with what they have and PCs miss out on variation in their game, NPCs get discouraged because the lack of another goal leaves them feeling their objective to put up a winning fight failed, and GMs get a lot of pressure not to "be mean".

 

It's tangled. There are many strings involved.

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