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James

being an alchemist could define a PC?

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So, one of the things I have observed about Novitas is that we are heading toward a "late game" PC population, and that balances struck for "early game" PCs has led to a few things being more or less obsolete. I hear old school players talk about how magic strike was amazing, but now many players hit for 4, or can stack buffs, or have a mageblade, or even elven steel, and it's essentially a thing of the past.

 

I believe alchemy is used far less than essentially any other skill tree in game. I believe this is because using an alchemical compound is expensive, and not exactly practical. Since alchemy provides a fixed number of production prior to each event, one can use alchemy far less than magic (whose users can cast 60-80 power depending on which shifts they play, vs. an alchemist who can only create 20 power of items per game, or 30 if he goes hunting for flowers etc). In addition, his 'spells' cost coin, whereas magic users get all the magic they want for free after they've paid the skill points. Alchemists also have to purchase (with real money) 5 props to achieve 5 level alchemy, AND spend in game coin to create them, AND watch over them so they don't get stolen. Aside from the poison_pin/stun/curse stuff, all of alchemy's effects can be replicated on the stat sheet for cheaper - you're much better off just getting power and body than paying for ogre extracts (which last just 1 game day) or elixirs of cosmic power and having to spend all the skill points to climb the alchemy/production trees.

 

What I propose is a significant change in how alchemy currently works. Instead of alchemy just replicating stat sheet skills and providing a few nuanced skills that only a handful of people use (for every JC who uses garlic paste there are 10 potions lying in the bottom of someone's chest), I suggest that alchemy become a high expenditure, high output field.

 

The suggestion: *gasp* what if alchemy allowed for 1/gd items that broke cap, but they couldn't produce more than 1 of them per event? And make acid not effected by poison immunity/spirit shield, so it is the one thing that can't be "no effected" (except by enchant shield). This also makes Ruin a cast-able spell, which it currently is not.

 

 

You could even leave all the other skills, but then add:

 

Level 10 alchemy (costs 10 production + 10 coin) -

 

Vial of the Blood of an orc champion - causes opponent to attack nearest person until unconscious or dead

 

Distilled Myconid spores - renders a limb useless for 10 minutes

 

Dragon's blood - swing for 4 primal 4x

 

The Scholar's Syringe - immune to necromancy (ignore unhallow, reap, curse)

 

Blood of a High Fae - works like garlic powder/bug repellent, but for fae

 

Distilled Essence of a Wraith - swing for pierce 2x

 

Level 20 alchemy (costs 20 production + 20 coin)- Gorgannash's lost elixir - +2 power, breaks cap

 

Syrum of the Soldier's City - +1 damage, breaks cap

 

Bog Lurker's Hide - monstrous body for 1 game day

 

Krabbe Carapace oil - makes armor impervious to pierce for the event

 

Bethanael's Secret - Stacks with mastery, -1 power to cast any of your spells

 

Yebbing powder - Makes pit trap wherever thrown

 

Third Eye - See through dissipate one time, last until discharged.

 

 

 

 

This would create true luxury items. They have no chance of flooding the game since they'd be really awesome and people would want to use them. Alchemists could sell them for a ton, and really wealthy players would have somethng to spend their money on. And none of this stuff breaks the game at all. Thoughts?

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amendment to Bethanael's secret - you need to choose 1 school of magic.

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+1

 

 

While I dont know if I agree with the abilities you have chosen (would need to think about it quite a bit more), I do 100% agree with your point and think the overall idea you propose is pretty legit.

 

I can't exactly think of a downside. Nothing is being taken away from players, only more is given. Perhaps some of the more awesome stuff you could even make "alchemist only" (just an idea). Also to prevent people from stock piling too much awesomeness, you could give them a special item type that only one can be used at a time.

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I have been working on a system myself since last event for this myself. Its something I have been saying for a while and most of what I have been told is that Alch =/= magic. Im not saying it has to, and that it dose have a different flavor but the difference in balance is oceans apart. And it dose suck as a alchemist that 90% of the things people want to buy and use we have a hard time getting because of the regents or because of formulas. Here are the main problems I see off the bat.

 

A. Cost a ton of coin to create the Items that let me even create the Alchemicals. Over a gold just for the items themselfs.

B. Have 20 points to spend instead of 40-60 points magic users get for free.

C. Having a much more limited set of options to pick from than magic.

D. Having to premake them and figure out what i'm going to use before the event starts.

E. Application time being a min for most means you need to know what your fighting ahead of time because you dont have a min to sit and wait in combat while you coat your blade.

 

It dose have one major pro though over magic, Consumables don't go away. If you dont use all your magic power and convergence hits it goes poof while my bottles are here to stay. Thats a nice thing in that it lets me bank my power but when im only getting 20 of it total compared to 40-60 depending its still not viable. Alchemy's other pros are that it gives me access to poisons and acids, but magic can replicate that with Creeping Rot and Ruin, and Alchemicals can be used silently.

 

What my plan I have been looking into making is to split them up into 3 different groups. A. Poisons/Acids. B. Alchemicals. C.Scrolls and Potions. There is a few skill points gap caused in Savant when all the Merchant-ing skills were moved that we could replace with this and not change or remove anything but giving players more choice.

 

A. All the poisons get removed from Alchemy and get put into its own tree of "Poisonering". New Poisons would need to be introduced to add in more variety to each of the levels as well as the poison effects that are already in play so we don't have to take or replace what players have. The new skill would be 4 skill points like scribe scroll and give you access to all level 1 poisons. All others above that you need to find Formulas for to make like how we have now. This makes pure Poison users something that can happen in game with a lot more options and instead of spending skill points to get higher effects like spells, it takes in game time.

 

B. Alchemicals be changed to more of a presence with lasting longer effects and bigger effects. Adding in some new concepts to take place of the poisons that were removed. The bigger effects should represent the more input you have to put in because of the Regent Items needed. Thing more of a emphasis on Gameday and Event durations (Which a lot of them already are) And a shifting of some down and some up in level to align with this idea.

 

C. Scribe Scroll and Brew Potion remain unchanged as they are.

 

This pushes things around and gives more freedom in choices but the core this dosent change is only having 20 points... So why not change it into each of the 3 gets their own pool of points. Now this is were my idea is falling flat in my head. The options im seeing are as follows...

 

Every one of the 3 gets 20 points to spend. This will cost more Skill Points for crafters to collect all the levels but the more levels also means the less flood the economy will have. This is my least favorite and I think 60 points, event split 3 ways is giving to much power.

Alchemy and Scrolls stay under PP and have 20 points where Poisons and Potions get 20 points as well. I also dont like this becasue I feel that Potions would flood but this seems more like the balanced solution.

The last way of thinking is the most radical but I think overall the best in theroy. Production gets split down the middle. 20 Alchemy points at 4 points per skill point and 20 Venom points at 4 per skill point. This wont change the over all skill points needed to have the max which might casue flooding because of the easier leveling but it gives a pure alchemest 40 points, half of which is pure poison and the other half be Alchemical enchantments. Scrolls and Potions get created if the person has the skill and they can make up to the amount of MP they have. There for you have 20 mp, you can make 20 levels worth. Level 4 and 5 still need ritual quills and ink but it makes it so magic users don't need to spend points in Production.

 

Its all just theory in my head but I have been working on it to balance it more before I presented it but seeing as this topic was made, Nows a good a time as ever. All my theroy dose it open up more consumable for players to dump money into and gives more options (Poisonmancers are now viable with this) without taking away what people already have. Throw me some feedback on what you all think though.

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Note: All Alchemy has been changed so that it no longer takes a minute to apply.

 

1) Unscrew Cap.

2) RP coating your sword with poison or pulling out your tagbag as the vial you're throwing.

3) Throw vial or tie a blue ribbon around your sword.

4) Profit.

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Note: All Alchemy has been changed so that it no longer takes a minute to apply.

 

Smelling salts is instant now? Handy!

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Bug Repellant, Ethereal Sealant, and Garlic Paste still take 1 min. If memory serves.

 

The weapon flag stuff got shortened to "tie the flag".

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This concept excites me. As we've fixed the lower rung spells over the years by eliminating or buffing the least usable ones we've left alchemy in the dust.

 

It would be cool to have a viable non-magic option for competitive effects. Things that are costly, but you just cannot get elsewhere.

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Bug Repellant, Ethereal Sealant, and Garlic Paste still take 1 min. If memory serves.

 

The weapon flag stuff got shortened to "tie the flag".

 

I think non-weapon buffs were changed to the "ribbon" rule as well. (You'd apply the ribbon to yourself rather than the weapon.)

 

 

 

I agree with pretty much everything James said about the obsolescence and inefficiency of alchemy to some degree. However, I still wouldn't make the "level 10 Alchemy items" listed. The ability to swing for 5 damage is neat, but mechanically is not that different than swinging for 4 (trust me, I've run the numbers). To me, I get much more 'bang for my buck', so-to-speak, by producing a couple level 5 scrolls.

 

To add to his points, though: potions are consumables of non-tagbag spells. Non-tagbag spells (like healing stuff, and magic armor) are useful to keep around. Especially if they last a gameday. Alchemy consumables, currently, are either more expensive augmentations to your character stats or 'tagbag' expendibles.

 

Tagbag consumables, in a nutshell, are highly... highly... highly inefficient. I could spend 3 coin to buy a corruption and have poison vs 100 fae for 10 min, or I can spend roughly a silver on a single target to hit them for 2 poison damage (pierce). Effectively doing nothing but throwing away money. Even if that fae had a silver on him as loot, that 2 poison pierce isnt going to do the job.

 

The only consistent alchemy items I've sold in 5 years are the following:

 

- Minor Power Elixers (for lowbies who want 20 power)

- Corruption (for cheap solution to overcome poison DR)

- Bile of Nox (an extra slay on your weapon = awesome)

- Grip of Darkness (the anti-bagman solution, aka poison stun)

- Vial of Acid (not so much anymore, since so much stops it. It's more effective to just beat them with a sword.)

 

 

Two-Step Venom? The once-made-illegal substance because it was so feared? A joke. You can hardly give them away anymore. There's no practical use for spending 15+ coin on a what could be accomplished with a single sword swing. If it did 5 poison pierce, you MIGHT be able to justify using it on an armored human... but otherwise most armored NPCs are either undead or entirely monstrous... or you'd need to throw TWO of them to take out one person. That NPC better have a small fortune on them or you just gave up all your moneys for nothing.

 

I'm in favor of some kind of boost without introducing all these new abilities.

 

The first thing that comes to mind is this:

 

Production of Alchemy consumables comes in batches!

e.g. If you produce a Vial of Acid at sign-in, you get a 'batch' of 2 or 3 or 4 of them. To balance it out, just specify for each alchemy item how many come in a batch. For useless crap that no one buys, you can have it come in batches of 4. For high-powered stuff like Grip of Darkness, have it just be singular. So, for instance, when I produce Hand of Deaths for 3 production points, I get 4 of them.

 

An easy production fix! No rule changes needed! It'll even drop the existing prices on consumable alchemy items due to supply/demand. I'm also in favor of Cosmic Power Elixir and Ogre Extract lasting a gameday normal... or breaking cap for 10 min. That seems like a cool way to keep the items useful for everyone; even veterans.

 

 

TL;DR - Allow Alchemy items to be produced in batches of 2 or greater depending on their use (kind of like how arrows come in groups of 4 when crafting them). Also, add the 'or break cap for 10 minutes' clause to items that suck otherwise: like Ogre Extract and Cosmic Elixers.

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On my phone so can't make a big reply, but making cosmic power elixirs last ten minutes is the same thing as making them last a game day. Once the power is used, you can't get it back whether it is cast in 10 minutes or 100.

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On my phone so can't make a big reply, but making cosmic power elixirs last ten minutes is the same thing as making them last a game day. Once the power is used, you can't get it back whether it is cast in 10 minutes or 100.

 

Might not make much of a difference for cosmic power but it does for the others. When writing rules we try to maintain consistency to avoid "special exceptions".

 

Also consider that 10 min vs gameday means you need to have the vial with you during the 'time of need' versus just ripping up the paper when you start the shift in the safety of your own cabin. That's a huge balancing factor. I can see it being used if you're down to 2 power and need to cast a level 5 spell to save your life. Or, down to 0 power and you need a sanctuary to save your party. It's basically high level consumable that acts as an "omni-level-3-spell".

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