[Falco Kadrim]

I agree with Dave...

Just take into account. The old system

1 Armor +
4 Body +
4 Improved Magic Armor +
2 Enhanced Armor
----------------------------
11 Dmg... If you can get your hands on Abomination = 12 hits to go down.

With the new system

0 Armor (with the change)+
4 Body +
4 Imp. Magic Armor +
0 enhance armor
------------------------------
8 Dmg... 9 Hits to go down...

^^^ That doesn't seem like a big difference. However; it is. Especially when spells like Mend Armor that are big for you squishy folk, cannot be used if your armor before was a mear 1 pt. brought up to 3 pt with Enhance.

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To Dren...

I'm not 100% certain. However Studded Hide could be as strong as Plate. Especially if it's a good thick hide, with studs, and passes Dave's physical test. It most certainly would be as strong as plate. Probably harder to use as well.

Think of it as Minotaur skin. They are monstrous, and the only thing protecting them are their "hides".

[Octavius]

There are SCA Fighters that use 14-15oz leather armor.. And they use heavy wooden sticks for swords. If that isn't blunt force trauma i don't know what is. =D

[Mortanius Von-Cr...]

i thought abomination only applied to you body and not your armor...am i wrong?

[Schuyler]

Combat should be scary, life-or-death, every damned time. Armor should actually be armor, as opposed to a vehicle to hang Enhance Armor and Ablative Armor on.

You mean people may have to back off if they are alone by themselves in the woods and come across a group of five orcs?

That's just unreasonable.

[Dren Ollevres]

i thought abomination only applied to you body and not your armor...am i wrong?

It was changed to be global so it was simpler (much like how Shadow Skin was changed). However, it would seem that Abomination only applying to body would make things more balanced while still making the spell worth it.

It's a tough call though... players have fun being 'bad-ass'. There's still always a threat of dying by means other than raw damage. (pin, stun, dominate) etc. Reducing defensive bonuses will just cause more players to opt towards dissipate... or sanctuary... or some other kind of win-button.

If recent Events have proven anything, it's that people CAN die. Now that there aren't random NPCs raiding town, the PCs have time to set up their group... prepare themselves for combat... etc etc. Somehow, a portion of the element of surprise was removed.

Even if everyone had 0 body, swinging for 1s, healers would simply dissipate or hide... then when the battle's over they'd heal the fallen. That's where your invincibility resides. Having 12 hits before you get taken down is usually only on one high level player in the group and only for 10 minutes. It's not like we WANT to kill players.

There are a lot of non-combat characters out there still. We want people to feel bad-ass and to have fun, don't we?

[Mortanius Von-Cr...]

wow who ever changed it needs a kick to the dick seriously that's ludicrous it should only cover your natural body

[Octavius]

As far as i can tell, that is the way it has been since i started playing...

[hivemind]

KoN is a roleplaying game, not a combat game. Yes, we fight, but combat is a tool, not the point of the game. If you want a game that's all about the fighting, I'd like to introduce you to Dagorhir.

Only problem there is that you have to be able to actually fight...

Our combat system was never supposed to enable little weedy people with no body strength or endurance to be combat gods. It is not supposed to enable a guy who gets out of his chair once a month to slay anything he sees. If this is your medieval fantasy, sorry, we are not that game. If you want to fight, then get some armor and practice your fighting.

This is also not the game where skills and powers can entirely make up for real-world physical skills. If this means some people don't have an OMG AWESOME time every event, now that they can't wade into ten orks alone anymore, sorry.

[ThatGuy]

Thanks Dave, this changes things considerably for me. I was thinking about trying to loose the last 5 or so pounds it would take to fit into that set of Brigidine I bought, but since the heavy, thick metal plates don't overlap, it looks like it might be 1 point armor as the plates only almost butt up on each other. ;-) I'll stick with the lighter leather that's the same value, or stud the hell out of my current brestplate.

All this being said, as Gaius I take notice when something comes at me swinging for four. I know Gaius is not a heavy fighter 95% of the time. The only time I ever really try it is when I can get Abomination running, and I'm of the mindset that if I need Abomination to win, I'm probably doing it wrong to begin with. I'm either in a fight with someone who's a lot better then I am, or there are to many opponents. Either way, I need to NOT BE THERE unless there is no other option.

Now that's out of the way, a quick question.

How are we going to measure the ounce of the leather? Just take a ruler to the side? I have no idea what thickness my breastplate is as it's a few years old, and would like to know before I get to studding.

[hivemind]

I can just look at it and know, but for the other Combat Refs, we'll probably have a few "size guides", rings with scrap pieces of leather on them to give examples of the different weights. They'll just compare by visual inspection.

Do not expect to be given the benefit of the doubt though, if it's close we'll be rounding down.

[Maeve]

If the metal "plates" don't overlap, then it depends entirely on the the thickness of the leather underneath.

If the 'plates' on the brigandine were leather, it wouldn't fall under 13.6.5, right? Would the thickness of the armor, for the purpose of determining armor value, would be determined by the thickness of the plate in that case? Or would overlapping also be required?

(I ask for Michael's sake. He's a sad panda.)

[hivemind]

MK: 13.7.9 says you can use two layers of leather to meet a requirement. Even so, 13.7.4 says that leather plates or scales must overlap as well.

If he makes it from all leather, it's still going to be just the studded version of whatever thickness the base leather is. When measuring it for valuation, we're going to measure the thin areas between the plates, unless there are no gaps.

Have him be patient for a few days, we're talking about brigandine right now in Rules.

[Xicris]

With the addition of Monstrous Armor, Enhance Armor does become overpowered I agree. ESPECIALLY as a level 1 spell. Is their any way we can rule it to only be applied to non-monstrous armor, or are we leaning towards losing the spell entirely?

[Maeve]

MK: 13.7.9 says you can use two layers of leather to meet a requirement. Even so, 13.7.4 says that leather plates or scales must overlap as well.

If he makes it from all leather, it's still going to be just the studded version of whatever thickness the base leather is. When measuring it for valuation, we're going to measure the thin areas between the plates, unless there are no gaps.

Have him be patient for a few days, we're talking about brigandine right now in Rules.

Thanks. You just made my life a lot easier.

[Miles Castigus]

Dave, if I'm reading this correctly, padded armor has been eliminated from the armor list altogether. Is this an omission, or intentional?

(Looking to upgrade into armor, just not sure what direction I want to go yet.)

[hivemind]

Padded armor is gone. The only cloth armor that I can imagine we'd entertain would be linothrax. If someone wants to wear linothrax, let us know and we'll figure out where it fits in.

If you were looking at (or were wearing) a 1-point armor before (padded gambeson, leather bodice/vest, etc.) then, provided your costume is up to par, you can simply claim the single point for costume armor. What you cannot any longer do is then hit your leather jerkin with Enhance Armor and have it be the same as a shirt of chain.

We're willing to still work with people on armor issues, however we're not going to be so cavalier about valuations as we sometimes were in the past. If you've got something you think should be counted as armor, then, by all means, have C&S take a look at it. Worst we can do is say "that's costume".

[Miles Castigus]

That's great, Dave. Tells me what I need to know.*

*Needs to get his lazy ass in shape for real armor

[Dren Ollevres]

I was mulling over this for a while today... y'know, not everyone in a group of 8 players is a fighter (except maybe Sentinels).

If NPC parties (to match) are roughly the same size, sometimes more, then the 3-4 fighters of the group have to take on 8-15 npcs at times. Going down this path of limiting how 'crazy buffed' a single character can be (which usually requires the aid of others in the group buffing them) seems to devalue a support character such as an Enchanter or an Aegis mage.

Yeah, someone could buff themselves up to 12 points to take them down, but against 2x as many NPCs (or more), it seems like a fair fight, IMO. In GoST, in particular, our casters are very valuable assets to our group... but they aren't front-line fighters. Which means in our group of 7, we have 3, maybe 4, fighters (Miles is in the inn, so change 7 to 6). One or two get buffs. So, those 3 need to be able to handle whatever NPC hogwash is thrown at us. You start getting into more than 2 encounters and groups begin to be taxed on resources. This isn't even considering the NEW groups with newer players who want to be able to get in on the action.

Some of the most powerful players in game are retiring or dead, now. I'm not sure there's really that big of an issue with people being 'too powerful' anymore. I'm also saying this with 3 beers and a martini in me... so welcome to the mind of Dren

[Maeve]

Dude, I don't think you're going to argue this away.

[hivemind]

1. l2fight nub
2. Get your "casters" spears. This is a classless system. No one gets a free pass in combat because they've chosen to play a stereotype or specialize too much.
3. goto 1