[Mortanius Von-Cr...]

lol i love you Dave

[Vicious the Jest...]

1. l2fight nub

Sorry. No clue what this means... I'm guessing it has something to do with fighting and being a noob.

[Falco Kadrim]

You forgot 4 Dave..

4) Dren.. You lose... Shh!

and L2fight nub = Learn to Fight NOOB!

[Neccero Wildstor...]

wow i have to say i approve of these new armor rules (even though it screws me out of at least 3 armor points.) this will actually motivate me more to start saving what few bucks i make each week and get better armor. or go and fix up the tree trunk armor since my current armor i got i believe has garment leather as a backing and i believe the studs are now to far apart. oh well

[WilhelmKingspeak]

"13.7.2. Studded leathers may be studded with metal spots, rings, washers or rivets. No bottle caps, brads or plastic may be used."
Can we add "small metal plates" to this to cover brigandine?

[hivemind]

We're still discussing brigandine. Right now, the most cogent suggestion is that we will allow armors covered in X% of plates of Y material be counted as being armor constructed of Y material, provided the plates are no more than Z distance apart.

So (hypothetically) if you take some 6oz leather and cover it with 18 gauge metal plates no more than 1/4" apart, you'll be able to count that as 3-point plate armor (hypothetically).

This is still under discussion. After re-reading everything, brig was obviously an oversight and needs something more. What that something more is we have not yet decided.

[Eppe00863]

Hi Dave,

I have another question about leather designations in the new ruleset.

Looking around at the Tandy catalog, most of their stocked leather weights end at 9-10oz and then jump up to 14-16 oz. Looking at the below rule, am I reading this correctly that 2 pieces of 6oz leather can be joined to effectively meet the 10oz leather threshold?

Thanks,
8ft Mike

13.7.9. No more than two layers of leather are permitted in any area being measured for armor point value.

[hivemind]

Hi Dave,

I have another question about leather designations in the new ruleset.

Looking around at the Tandy catalog, most of their stocked leather weights end at 9-10oz and then jump up to 14-16 oz. Looking at the below rule, am I reading this correctly that 2 pieces of 6oz leather can be joined to effectively meet the 10oz leather threshold?

Thanks,
8ft Mike

Technically, yes, but if there are any gaps, it's going to instead fall under the guidelines for studded, or under the new brigandine rules we'll come up with. It should, almost every circumstance, be more cost effective and time effective to simply construct from the heavier leather that meets the guidelines by itself.

[Miles Castigus]

13.9.2.1. States that Monstrous is only granted to areas with 3 or 4 point armor. It does not say that all 3-point is Monstrous, though. So, if I understand correctly, a chain hauberk would be 3 non-monstrous, but a plate breastplate and back over it makes the torso into half-plate, grants Monstrous, and the 3-point chain sleeves now extend that ability to the covered portions of the arms.

Is this the correct interpretation?

[hivemind]

No. Only areas covered with monstrous armor get the monstrous ability. Hits to your arms will not get the Monstrous benefit.

Thank you for catching that. 13.9.2.1. has been changed to:

13.9.2.1. The Monstrous ability is only granted to areas covered with 3 point or 4 point Monstrous armors, not to areas covered by lesser armors being counted as a greater points value to match torso armor.

[Miles Castigus]

Thanks for the clarification.

[Eppe00863]

Even though it's not explicitly stated anywhere, does armor still has to cover 75% of the armor area to gain coverage? Currently, wrap around bracers and longer pauldrons that cover 75% of the arm make the whole arm-region armored.

Is that still the case, or is your arm only totally covered if you have something rigged up like Primes' suit?

[Miles Castigus]

13.9.1. Only areas that are actually covered by armor gain the protection from it.

It's gotta be there to take the hit now, it seems.

[hivemind]

13.9.1. Only areas that are actually covered by armor gain the protection from it.

Correct. No more magic skirts and Vambraces of Total Arm Coverage.

[Falco Kadrim]

Quick question for anyone with some input...

http://www.medievalcollectibles.com/p-359-...segmentata.aspx <-- Armor I want..

For an extra $100 dollars, you can get 1/4 inch thick leather (13/15 oz). Would that count for Hide Leather:

Stiff leather 1/4 inch or thicker. Also includes waxed or water hardened heavy leather.

I was also wondering if it was possible to add studs to that type of armor. If so, who is someone that could do that? Also, would that also then make the armor monstrous?

Under the rules it says for Studded Hide, it is 4 pt. Monstrous armor. Would that then qualify?

[thunderstave]

Quick question for anyone with some input...

http://www.medievalcollectibles.com/p-359-...segmentata.aspx <-- Armor I want..

For an extra $100 dollars, you can get 1/4 inch thick leather (13/15 oz). Would that count for Hide Leather:

I was also wondering if it was possible to add studs to that type of armor. If so, who is someone that could do that? Also, would that also then make the armor monstrous?

Under the rules it says for Studded Hide, it is 4 pt. Monstrous armor. Would that then qualify?

Studded Hide is 4 pt armor. There is no armor value higher than 4pt armor.

Monstrous armor meets two specific qualifications. It must have both to be monstrous. Those two are Rigidity and Metal Coverage.

If something is rigid enough to pass "the bat test" or otherwise be constructed in such a way that it is inflexible to weapon impacts, it is eligible to be Monstrous armor provided that it also be covered in some kind of metal.

We ruled out Monstrous Hide years ago. The only time you might get Hide counted as Monstrous is going to be if you have big, rigid pieces and cover them in butting brigadine plates, or stud it to the point the studs touch (having that many holes will likely soften the piece to being less rigid than you want anyway.)

The new system will have Monstrous 3 and 4 pt armor.

Really, if you are looking for Monstrous lorica segmentata at that price, you can probably lay your hands on a stainless steel set with some research. Definitely mild steel for that price.

[Falco Kadrim]

Studded Hide is 4 pt armor. There is no armor value higher than 4pt armor.

Monstrous armor meets two specific qualifications. It must have both to be monstrous. Those two are Rigidity and Metal Coverage.

If something is rigid enough to pass "the bat test" or otherwise be constructed in such a way that it is inflexible to weapon impacts, it is eligible to be Monstrous armor provided that it also be covered in some kind of metal.

We ruled out Monstrous Hide years ago. The only time you might get Hide counted as Monstrous is going to be if you have big, rigid pieces and cover them in butting brigadine plates, or stud it to the point the studs touch (having that many holes will likely soften the piece to being less rigid than you want anyway.)

The new system will have Monstrous 3 and 4 pt armor.

Really, if you are looking for Monstrous lorica segmentata at that price, you can probably lay your hands on a stainless steel set with some research. Definitely mild steel for that price.

Well I just was curious because it's a lot lighter, and quieter. The black is also easier to conceal in the dark.

Also, when I saw this post and read through the armor. I noticed that Studded Hide was under the 4 pt. Monstrous armor section. Which is also why I asked the question about studs. Maybe it's in there by mistake?

I don't care either way. I'm just confused.. 1/4th inch thick Leather is said to be 3 points (hide). Then Studded hide = 4pt (which is in turn Monstrous). LoL

13.12.4.2. Four point armor is Monstrous.
13.12.4.3. Studded hide.
13.12.4.4. Armor made from overlapping hide pieces such as scale armor, lamellar or leather brigandine.
13.12.4.5. Articulated plate armor: Plate armor with flexible joints that can bend and move with the movements of the player while still providing complete coverage.
13.12.4.5.1. Articulated armor must be a complete harness, e.g. articulated arms would contain a full vambrace, articulated elbow, rerebrace, and pauldrons.
13.12.4.5.2. Wearing incomplete articulated plate, e.g. wearing a back-and-breast without fauld, tassets and gorget, makes it half plate armor.

I just want to get it cleared up to figure out what I wanna do. The Steel Segmentata has broken twice on me now. If I can avoid getting it fixed, or spending 300+ on a new Stainless Steel set (that would probably break again) I would like to do it. Leather would be much more convenient for me. Especially since I'm a small guy. If this idea doesn't work out, then I'll just stick with Steel.

[hivemind]

Here's the latest draft of the armor rules. Please pick them apart and ask intelligent questions.

Some things that have changed:

Helmets condensed to all 1-point
Brigandine rules added
Layering eliminated
Studding changed to 1-inch
Hide eliminated
Heavy leather moved to 12oz
Rule to cover shitty/damaged armor
Rule to cover requiring monstrous torso to get monstrous limbs
Adjusted thicknesses for plate to be only fractions of an inch
Added thicknesses for metal scales



13. Armor
13.1. Armor must never impede the normal movement of a player’s body in a fashion that endangers the wearer or prevents the player from following the rules of the game, e.g. If a player is wearing armor that prevents them from kneeling, they are unable to properly accept leg wounds.
13.2. Armor must be attached or fitted on the body with proper integral closures such as buckles, laces, or snaps. Players are not allowed to attach armor to their body with tape, string, or similar temporary means.
13.3. Armors constructed in a markedly ineffective manner, that would provide little actual protection, or damaged armors, may have their value downgraded.
13.4. Wearing armor does not count as a costume and players are required to wear a proper costume under their armor at all times.
13.4.1. This includes racial make-up EVEN if the player is wearing a full-face helmet.
13.5. Players wearing plate armor are required to wear a padded gambeson or arming jack underneath the armor.
13.6. Armor that consistently causes unreasonable damage to weapons will be removed from play.
13.7. Metal armor
13.7.1. Metal armor plates are of at least 0.0478 inch thickness.
13.7.2. All edges of metal plates should be safely blunted or rolled.
13.7.3. Chain mail rings should be of no greater than one-half inch inside diameter.
13.7.4. Chain mail rings may be of no less than 0.0403 inch wire.
13.7.5. Metal scales must be of at least 0.015 inch thickness
13.7.6. Metal scales must overlap to provide armor value.
13.7.7. Metal brigandine is armor constructed of non-overlapping metal plates on a backing material.
13.7.7.1. Brigandine plates must be within one-half inch of each other.
13.7.7.2. Brigandine plates must have multiple points of attachment to the backing or to each other, or be held in individual pockets.
13.7.7.3. Non-leather backing materials generally reduce the armor value of brigandine armor as per rule 13.3.
13.7.7.4. The plates may be inside or outside the backing material.
13.8. Leather armor
13.8.1. Leather armor must be constructed of real leather. No pleather, vinyl, or other synthetic leathers are acceptable.
13.8.2. Studded leathers may be studded with metal spots, rings, washers or rivets. No bottle caps, brads or plastic may be used.
13.8.3. Studded leather should have no more than 1 inch of un-studded leather on any part of it.
13.8.3.2. The simple test used for this will be to try and place a US quarter dollar coin between studs. It should fit with a small bit of wiggle room, but no more.
13.8.4. Leather scales must overlap to provide armor value.
13.8.5. Light leather is leather of at least 6 ounce weight (3/32 inch).
13.8.6. Heavy leather is leather of at least 12 ounce weight (3/16 inch).
13.8.7. Leather is a natural material with natural variations that may result in irregular measurements. Players are free to request an average of multiple (up to five) measurements when their armor is measured for its armor point value.
13.8.8. No layering of leather is permitted in any area being measured for armor point value.
13.8.9. Leather brigandine is armor constructed of non-overlapping leather plates on a backing material.
13.8.9.1. Brigandine plates must be within one-half inch of each other.
13.8.9.2. Brigandine plates must have multiple points of attachment to the backing or to each other, or be held in individual pockets.
13.8.9.3. Non-leather backing materials do not contribute to the armor value of brigandine armor.
13.8.9.4. Brigandine plates must equal or exceed the value of the backing leather to be counted as armor.
13.8.9.5. The plates may be inside or outside the backing material.
13.9. Armor made of non-period materials (plastics, kydex, nylon, etc.) is not allowed.
13.9.1. Non-period metals or alloys, such as aluminum, titanium, galvanized steel, stainless steel, nickel-plated steel, or anodized aluminum are allowed.
13.10. Armor counts for between 1 and 4 points of protection.
13.10.1. Only areas that are actually covered by armor gain the protection from it.
13.10.2. Monstrous armor takes only one damage from sources without the Slay ability.
13.10.2.1. The Monstrous ability is only granted to areas covered with 3 point or 4 point armors, not to areas covered by lesser armors being counted as a greater points value to match torso armor.
13. 10.2.2. In order for any limb armor worn to be counted as Monstrous, Monstrous torso armor must also be worn.
13.11. Combining or layering armor does not give a player more than one armor point value, nor does it increase the value of the armor on a location..
13.11.1. The character still has a single, main armor value that is based on the best armor they are wearing on their torso.
13.11.2. To wear other armor, such as legs and arms, and have it count as coverage, that armor must be no more than one point lower than the player’s torso armor value.
13.11.3. Limb armor may be of a higher point value than the torso armor
13.11.3.1. In this case, the limb armor uses the lower armor point value of the torso armor.
13.11.3. Players may count their torso armor as lower than its listed value to get limb armor to count.
13. 11.3.1. Rule 13.11also applies to helmets.
13.12. Helmets grant 1 point of universal armor.
13.12.1. Universal armor covers all hit locations.
13.12.2. Light helmets are helmets that cover at least the entire crown of the head, but have minimal or no neck and face coverage.
13.12.2.1. Light helmets must be constructed primarily of metal.
13.12.3. Heavy helmets are light helmets that also cover the face and neck.
13.12.3.2. Heavy helmets must be constructed of at least light leather.
13.13. Armor Point Values
13.13.1. One point armor:
13.13.1.1. Full Costume: A player dressed in a full, appropriate fantasy or historical costume, free of anachronisms, from head to toe, is granted one point of complete armor coverage.
13.13.1.1.1. This allowance may not be combined with a helmet or other armor. Players who wish to claim this point of armor must present themselves in full garb to Logistics to be inspected.
13.13.1.2. Studded leather.
13.13.1.3. Light leather.
13.13.1.4. Furs: Real animal hides with the fur on, unless the leather is thick enough to qualify as a higher value by itself.
13.13.1.5. Helmet only.
13.13.1.6. Brigandine made from a leather backing with light leather plates.
13.13.2. Two point armor:
13.13.2.1. Studded light leather.
13.13.2.2. Armor made from overlapping light leather pieces such as scale armor or lamellar.
13.13.2.3. Heavy leather.
13.13.2.4. Any 1 point armor with a helmet.
13.13.2.5. Brigandine made from a leather or light leather backing with heavy leather plates, or brigandine made from a light leather backing with light leather plates.
13.13.3. Three point armor:
13.13.3.1. Studded heavy leather.
13.13.3.2. Armor made from overlapping heavy leather pieces such as scale armor or lamellar.
13.13.3.3. Chain armor: Armor made of interlocking butted or riveted metal wire.
13.13.3.4. Metal scale or lamellar armor
13.13.3.5. Brigandine made from a heavy leather backing with heavy leather plates, or brigandine made from any leather backing with metal plates.
13.13.3.6. Half-plate: metal plate armor that does not incorporate any articulated joints and/or has up to 75% exposed leather or chain.
13.13.3.6.1. Lorica Segmentata is half-plate armor.
13.13.3.6.2. A 2-piece back-and-breast is half-plate armor.
13.13.3.6.2. Half-plate armor counts as Monstrous.
13.13.3.7. Any 2 point armor with a helmet.
13.13.4. Four point armor:
13.13.4.1. The qualification for 4 point armor is rigidity - the ability to withstand blunt force trauma.
13.13.4.2. Four point armor is Monstrous.
13.13.4.5. Articulated plate armor: Plate armor with flexible joints that can bend and move with the movements of the player while still providing complete coverage.
13.13.4.5.1. Articulated armor must be a complete harness, e.g. articulated arms would contain a full vambrace, articulated elbow, rerebrace, and pauldrons.
13.13.4.5.2. Wearing incomplete articulated plate, e.g. wearing a back-and-breast without fauld, tassets and gorget, makes it half plate armor.
13.13.4.6. Any 3-point armor with a helmet.
13.13.5. Five point armor:
13.13.5.1. Any four point armor with a helmet.

[Eppe00863]

If "Light Leather" is defined as 6oz, and "Heavy Leather" is defined as 12oz, then is "Leather" defined as any leather under 6oz? This might be a good clarification, especially for the brigandine rules, like the one below.

13.13.2.5. Brigandine made from a leather or light leather backing with heavy leather plates, or brigandine made from a light leather backing with light leather plates.

[hivemind]

It's still not clear? Yes, that is the case. I will try and come up with a clarification that makes it completely unambiguous.

This work:

13.8.1. Leather armor must be constructed of real leather of any thickness (unless otherwise specified). No pleather, vinyl, or other synthetic leathers are acceptable.