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Wouldn't it be cool if we had more spells? Rate Topic: -----

Poll: Wouldn't it be cool if we had more spells?

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#1 User is offline   Incogneato 

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Posted 27 April 2017 - 08:16 AM

Ok, so on a much more wild topic- What if we added essentially a 3rd "column" of spells to each school?

I know this is something that has probably been discussed before, and I'm not nearly as convinced it's a good ideas as I am about replacing stun, however- I think that adding an extra level 1-5 spells to each school would add a lot of variety to spellcasting AND so long as we don't change the MP caps, it shouldn't change the power balance of the game at all, just add more variety and flavor. Mmm.. Flavor...
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I think the idea of replacing what can be considered a core spell of the game (stun) is a jarring concept to many. With so few spells, replacing one severely changes the world of Novitas as we know it. I think that by adding another 33.33333% spells to the game, we can add a lot, and take away nothing. The only thing would be a little bit of extra memorization on the part of most PCs, but let's face it, most of us D&D playing, X-wing strategizing wackadoos can easily handle learning some new spells.

Plus, I think expanding the magical repertoire of Novitas will lend more "Umph" to PCs that choose to play solely as casters. I mean, many casters in the game have found themselves having to take a few combat skills just to stay alive in a very melee-driven environment. It might even be fun to organize each school of magic into "sub-classes" loosely based on the spells in each of the three trees.

Idk, maybe I'm nuts, but this seems like something that, implemented with great care could really be cool.

Thoughts? (Feed my need for KoN-tact please)

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#2 User is offline   Danerec 

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Posted 27 April 2017 - 09:58 AM

I'm a bit on the fence here. On the one hand, cool new things for spellcasters would give me more incentive to bring back my spellcasting drake. There's a wizard side of me that wants to see more structure and order given to our magic system, but there's a sorcerer side that says "cry havoc and chuck more fireballs."

We do have a fair amount of spells with varied effects that have a wide variety of applications that not everyone thinks about. It's hard to look at a tree and think of a new spell to add for an effect you can't use a current spell for. You want to blind someone? Dominate, command to turn around and walk away from you (or in a non combat situation if they agree to go along with the RP, command close/cover your eyes). We have a version of disengage for virtually anything you come across (repel undead, repel nature), as well as dominate (command (greater)undead, command nature), all sorts of magical protection spells and specifically a rule that makes it so you can't have all of their effects at once because it would make you invincible.

So I'm mostly a no. RP-wise I'd love to see hedge wizards teach (legit) alternate applications of spells that get PCs thinking outside the box with their spellcasting, but I don't think there's room for an extra 35 spells without significant overlap of what already exists.



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#3 User is offline   Incogneato 

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Posted 27 April 2017 - 11:51 AM

While I agree that we have spells that are under-utilized by PCs, I think that a main issue of our spell system is that we have a little bit too much overlap between the functional effects of spells, meaning that we have too much redundancy in terms of control spells and disengage spells across the spell trees. Most of our spell are either designed to "make thing leave me alone" or "help me kill thing". We don't have much spell utility outside of combat at all. Other than magic lock and compulsion skills, everything is combat oriented.

I'm sure that we would be able to come up with more spells. Off the top of my head- a spell that allows you to write a letter that appears invisible, a spell that allows you to use healing to damage undead (add some combat utility to resto?), the actual additon of the Blink spell from JC's belt or the ability to "blink" another player a certain distance (out of a jail cell perhaps?).
Idk, those may not be the best ideas, but that took about 30 seconds. I'm sure we can find things that work.

Another thing is that maybe it doesn't have to be a full 5 spells per school, just lvls 1-3 to add more versatility for lower-level casters.

I think an important thing to remember is the power cap that we have in our game. It's a wonderful thing, in that it stops people from being OP and casting like it means nothing, however, it is also a double-edged sword in that it turns casting into a VERY frugal/selective process, particularly for (most) PCs who don't have their spell trees and MP all maxed out. With that in mind, using dominate like you described would be a bit silly. Nobody would waste 1/4 of their precious MP over a long shift for that kind of interaction. Give them a lvl 2 or 3 blind spell and maybe they will.
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#4 User is offline   Danerec 

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Posted 27 April 2017 - 12:39 PM

True my example of dominate was a bit forced, unless it was from a rod or other magic item instead of personal power I doubt they'd use it so trivially.

As for blinking, there are other game systems that use it (one down here in VA lets fae travel between shadows like we have bog lurkers dissipate in standing water). I think the ability to move in such a way should be reserved for leylines however due to the power needed to do it A) keeps most players from being able to do it right away and B) keeps most players from being able to do it at-will.

Your "healing damage to undead" idea should probably be a ritual to convert healing spells into damage, however thematically I feel like it goes against the will of the Mother. It might also be confusing to hear someone incant "da da da , heal body! 4 resto!" as they throw a tag bag.

I also like your invisible ink spell idea, but you'd need a way to signify it has been turned invisible, and probably a counter spell to reveal it again (although dispel probably works fine).

I do like the idea of "out of combat" lower level spells, I'm thinking they would be passed over by the combat intensive players as "cantrips" but scooped up by the RPers, meaning you won't have as much competition for what to spend power on.

Because they're not likely to be used in combat, you'll likely see more utilization of scrolls because of the available power limit.



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#5 User is offline   Kato Gallowsbane 

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Posted 27 April 2017 - 02:14 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong here.

I recall years ago that the marshals were toying with the idea of adding an 8th school of magic, Illusion. It would have the same number of spells, 1-5 with two spells per spell level, that had a focus of crowd control magic. It eventually did not happen because it was way too similar with Compulsion magic and the lore would have to be retconned to add an 8th god of the sept since each school of magic is represented by the 7 gods of the sept. Just a little tidbit regarding adding additional spells.
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#6 User is offline   Kato Gallowsbane 

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Posted 27 April 2017 - 02:32 PM

In regards to this post, I believe instead of adding more spells we should continue to adjust and balance the spells we already have which the marshals do every year.

Here are my thoughts on what spells could be changed for the better;
Spellstore-Limit this to only 3rd level and lower spells but allow up to 5 power worth of spells in a single weapon and those spells must be from the same school of magic.
Revive-JC had this idea originally but I thought it was interesting. Make this spell more of a ritual that takes time, effort, and/or components.
Battle Mastery-Add the effect of all weapons wield deal +1 magic damage that does not break cap.
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#7 User is offline   Incogneato 

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Posted 27 April 2017 - 04:02 PM

View PostDanerec, on 27 April 2017 - 12:39 PM, said:

True my example of dominate was a bit forced, unless it was from a rod or other magic item instead of personal power I doubt they'd use it so trivially.

As for blinking, there are other game systems that use it (one down here in VA lets fae travel between shadows like we have bog lurkers dissipate in standing water). I think the ability to move in such a way should be reserved for leylines however due to the power needed to do it A) keeps most players from being able to do it right away and Posted Image keeps most players from being able to do it at-will.

Your "healing damage to undead" idea should probably be a ritual to convert healing spells into damage, however thematically I feel like it goes against the will of the Mother. It might also be confusing to hear someone incant "da da da , heal body! 4 resto!" as they throw a tag bag.

I also like your invisible ink spell idea, but you'd need a way to signify it has been turned invisible, and probably a counter spell to reveal it again (although dispel probably works fine).

I do like the idea of "out of combat" lower level spells, I'm thinking they would be passed over by the combat intensive players as "cantrips" but scooped up by the RPers, meaning you won't have as much competition for what to spend power on.

Because they're not likely to be used in combat, you'll likely see more utilization of scrolls because of the available power limit.





For sure, I love the idea of adding in something that's the equivalent of "cantrips" or just things that have fun utility outside of combat- Spells that aid the more RP heavy PCs. The Sneky Sneky rats and those who like to understand more about the plots that go out.

Want to hide that dead body or stash of stolen goods for an hour? *concealing spell*
Want to send a sneky letter and avoid prying eyes? *magic ink*
Want to prank Ivan? *Spell that lets you transmit some speech/thoughts into another player's head* (Echo, perhaps?) or *spell that makes him calm and friendly for 10 minutes* (Tranquility, maybe?)

Idk, I feel like adding some lower level fun spells would be... fun
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#8 User is offline   Leenoco 

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Posted 27 April 2017 - 06:35 PM

If we are going to add low level spells, How about you just use the low level spells we have now. I so RARELY see PCs use level 1-2-3s and save their power for the 4-5s. Yet the 1-2-3's are fantastic! Again, its a fight smarter not harder situation. The only tree that doesnt have good level 1-2-3's IMO is Ageis, Becasue they all do the same thing more or less, OR are outclassed becasue Sync is still great.

As a Non-com, I would love to see more Cantrip like spells. But thats not our game. Our game has an high regard to realism and I cant think of many spells that are neat, out of combat effects, that dont break immersion or wouldn't be just plain silly. How are you hiding that body? Orange strip, I still see it and have to ignore it like Dissapate. Orange Blanket, Have fun caring that around. Invisible ink... Just use invisible ink. Prank Ivan... Put a bucket of Nickelodeon Gak over his door and jerryrig it to call when it opens. (Dont actually do this, His garb dosent deserve that.)

KoN is a simple system. Adding more things like spells that are required to know outright at the start is bad for new players. Sure our spells do what they say on the tin... but the rules to them still need to be known. What call does Spirit Shield stop, Do I Stun in place or fall down, What do I tell a player that Diagnosis me. You want to add 35 new spells, Thats at least 35 more new questions, 35 new interactions with existing spells you need to adjust for, 35 new ways to show the spell effect in some manor.

The spells we have now are great at 2 per level per school. Its a lot of variance and flavor. If you want more, Lets look at replacing spells with new things. But not a whole glob of new spells thrown into the mix.
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#9 User is offline   Leenoco 

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Posted 27 April 2017 - 06:45 PM

Also, if you want the cool one off effects that let you do neat things, like make Pit traps, put people to sleep, force them to tell the truth... Alchemy is the place.
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#10 User is offline   Incogneato 

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Posted 27 April 2017 - 08:10 PM

Wat? There are alchemicals that make pit traps? That's awesome. I don't see it on the list anywhere though.

You make a lot of good points. Also, for the record, this is in no way me shitting on our current system, which works great. This is just some fun food for thought in the fun "what if" forum, you know? Healthy discussion always encourages growth :)
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#11 User is offline   Danerec 

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Posted 28 April 2017 - 09:18 AM

Yeah, Yebbing powder.

Guile brought up the other reason I was on the fence with moar magic - Alchemy and tinkerers cover a lot of stuff straight up magic doesn't. I'm still learning new things (or re-learning when I finally come across something IG) that alchemy does besides poison you.

Also, like Guile's invisible ink suggestion (use actual invisible ink), I think Thaerion's first game she came in with "crystals from the ___ mountain" in small vials, that when poured onto the fire outside the inn turned the flames green.



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Posted 28 April 2017 - 02:53 PM

View PostDanerec, on 28 April 2017 - 09:18 AM, said:

Yeah, Yebbing powder.

Guile brought up the other reason I was on the fence with moar magic - Alchemy and tinkerers cover a lot of stuff straight up magic doesn't. I'm still learning new things (or re-learning when I finally come across something IG) that alchemy does besides poison you.

Also, like Guile's invisible ink suggestion (use actual invisible ink), I think Thaerion's first game she came in with "crystals from the ___ mountain" in small vials, that when poured onto the fire outside the inn turned the flames green.





I don't see yebbing powder anywhere in the alchemy list? Is this some super rare yeb drop? When I look at the alch list, I mostly see poisons and buffs. Are there missing things from the list? I feel like maybe some cool new alchemy compounds could also add some fun effects.
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#13 User is offline   Danerec 

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Posted 28 April 2017 - 03:34 PM

it might be one of those consumables that used to be a thing and aren't any more, but a few are still floating around. That or they're not craftable but as you said, rare loot drop. I mostly know they are a thing because I hear of contemporary veterans using them semi regularly, or encounters with NPCs that used them.

I've been informed there are thingsin game, but not on the alchemy list, that require special formulae to create with alchemy.


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#14 User is offline   DEAD SEXY 

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Posted 30 April 2017 - 11:10 PM

Agies lvl 1-3 are staples I use most of the time bro.

70 spells
21+ rituals
20ish alchemy
All of the crafting and tinkering and general knowledge skills

I think 35 things to remember might be too overwhelming for people to even try the game.


If you have some good spells you think should be added you should write them out and send them to Pat Lane :)

They do always look to improve the ones we have a have changed and subbed out many over the years.
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Posted 01 May 2017 - 07:29 AM

View PostDEAD SEXY, on 30 April 2017 - 11:10 PM, said:

...and send them to Pat Lane :)/>


dude
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#16 User is offline   PatLanicus 

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Posted 01 May 2017 - 10:55 AM

Don't you put that evil on me Ricky Bobby!
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Posted 01 May 2017 - 03:43 PM

There is NO WAY we're going to come up with 35 viable new spells.

If you want to take a crack at it, go ahead. Another player did, years ago, and there were some gems in it that eventually made it into game.

35 more new, unique, balanced, non-duplicate spells? No way.
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Posted 01 May 2017 - 04:06 PM

Well, it was also suggested above that maybe just adding level 1,2 or 3 spells might add utility for lower level mages, but everyone seems really fixated on the 34 more spells thing. It could instead be 14 or 21 spells.
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Posted 02 May 2017 - 11:02 AM

I like the sound of having more variety of lower level spells; it definitely lends credence to the power of the higher level spells, since there would be less of them available by comparison, and provides a sense of diversity that some people might find lacking in spell lists. However, that is a shit ton of work to do for something that might not even fit well in game, and has the potential to just make everything feel less important. If there are going to be new spells, even in theory, they need to be well thought out and planned, or they're going to bog down the experience. Having, for example, an Aegis spell that's better than Magic Armor, but only applicable in certain, minute situations, is just going to make players feel gross. I don't want to keep staring at spells that are just pitiful when I'm planning my next level.
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