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#1 User is online   hivemind 

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 06:49 PM

So, to start off, let me say that I'm not an engineer. I pretended to be one for a year of college before I moved on to IT stuff, and I think of myself as a logical person with a good grounding in scientific method. But, I'm not an engineer.

I'm trying to figure out an intelligent way to explain how flexible a weapon is, mostly so that I can impart useful and accurate information to my customers, both in person and on the (eventual) website I'll have up. Here's what I've come up with, and I'd like to know if this seems useful to anyone, or if I just spent six hours weighing, measuring, and "flexing" weapons for no good reason.

Basically, I figure that as long as whatever method I'm using to measure flex remains uniform and consistent, the data produced will be useful. Here's what I've done.

I clamp the weapon onto a bench with two clamps. The edge of the bench is where the "holdable" part of the weapon ends, that is, the end of the hilt wrap in most cases, but sometimes where I can feel the hard hilt end and the foam begin. Next to the weapon, there is a 5' level clamped in place, sticking out off the end of the table. There's a metal framing square hanging off the end of the level, giving me a vertical ruler to measure with.

I line up the tip of the weapon with the ruler, and note where it lines up. Then, I hang a 2 pound weight from the tip of the weapon using a leather strappy thing I built. I then measure again, and see how many inches the tip dropped. This is the "flex".

The flex of the weapon isn't, by itself, terribly useful. Obviously, longer weapons will exhibit more flex, and shorter weapons will exhibit less. So I then measure the "useful length" of the weapon (this is the part of the weapon hanging over the edge of the bench, that is, the part being "flexed" by the weight. I divide the flex by the useful length, and arbitrarily multiply by 100 to give a larger number (most people are uncomfortable with long decimals). I call this the Flex Rating of the weapon.

Flex / Useful Length * 100 = Flex Rating

Here's some of the raw data from today's escapades. These are the numbers from a portion of my Eagle Flex stock.

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I throw some of that into another spreadsheet and generate a simple bar graph from the sorted results. Here's the results sorted by Flex:

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And then here's the same data sorted by my "Flex Rating":

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Does this seem useful to anyone? Am I wasting a ton of time here? I feel like it's very frustrating to go to a website to buy a weapon, and have no idea if it's even going to be usable when you get it. Even more infuriating is the totally arbitrary descriptions some websites give (like: Flex: Medium).
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#2 User is offline   Octavius 

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 12:42 AM

Hmmmm. When im looking for a boffer I first look at the physical look of it, then the weight. How much is it going to strain my wrist? I assume that if its correctly built with the right materials that it should be safe, and good to use. I dont think I've seen a mass produced latex boffer that has an unacceptable ammount of flex to use. So i guess my question is... do any of these boffer have to much flex? What is the upper limit of an acceptable flex rating?

My concern with boffers when im using them is whip, which is related to flex but not exactly the same. It would be safe to say more flex is more whip.

Personally I believe the barbarian sword listed above is the same sword I personally use. And switching from pool noddle style round boffer to that was a huge change. Its faster, lighter, and considerably less whip. It feels right and it performs very well. Seeing as that sword is in the upper teir of flex ratings it would be safe for me to say that flex would be a non-issue for me when considering any of these boffers.

All this is also assuming that flex is bad. Right?
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Posted 19 January 2009 - 05:38 AM

Flex is bad within our system and fighting in general. Having a wiggly sword does not help much in combat for controlled strikes.

I think if you were to post this on a website you would need to post some pictures of what you mean by flex and show your method.

But overall it gives a better view of what your going to get before you get it. So much I would bet that someone would take this and post it to their site or link back to yours.
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#4 User is offline   Dren Ollevres 

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 09:40 AM

The FR and Usable length is great for making graphs, but I think just the Flex (in inches) would be more useful at a glance.

In the end, it would seem that someone wielding it would care more about the actual flex rather than a standard rating.

I'm just curious, what's the reasoning behind a 2 lb weight? If you're going for a standard, I'd use something for measuring force such as Newtons. Maybe even go as far to measure the average force of an allowable hit with a boffer and use that? That might be taking things to the extreme, though :P


To answer your question though, the data you've shown is very useful. In theory, you could try out the worst flex item and the best, and then easily get an idea about how the other weapons handle based on your info.

I would suggest measuring the deviation of the balance point from the hilt of the weapon. Balance is very important, as you probably know, since even the lightest weapons with poor balance can slow the blade due to the force your wrist has to exert to change direction. I notice a huge difference with my FD weapons compared to my old swords; my FD ones are actually slower to react without a bit more effort from my wrists. Granted, they're slightly longer, but only by a few inches.
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Posted 19 January 2009 - 10:00 AM

View PostOctavius, on Jan 19 2009, 12:42 AM, said:

My concern with boffers when im using them is whip, which is related to flex but not exactly the same.

How are they different?
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#6 User is online   hivemind 

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 10:02 AM

View PostDren Ollevres, on Jan 19 2009, 09:40 AM, said:

The FR and Usable length is great for making graphs, but I think just the Flex (in inches) would be more useful at a glance.

I disagree with that. A flex of four inches is a lot more acceptable in a 42" weapon than in a 30" weapon.
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Posted 19 January 2009 - 10:12 AM

Balancing is very much a personal issue. A sword that weighs ten ounces requires no balancing (unless you have weak wrists). Something like an Ateliers-Nemesis sword, which can weigh closer to twenty ounces, requires a bit of balancing.

There are mass produced weapons that are borderline unusable. The Sword of the Immortal Wobbler Warrior is a horrible weapon, and I'm not sure if our C&S Marshal would pass it. Calimacil weapons are also on a case-by-case basis at our game. They're very heavy, and the way they contour their foam blades makes them fold over rather than compact; essentially you're flailing away with a heavy, pretty, barely-padded core with them. Just trusting in the manufacturers is probably foolish, but again, it's all on personal preference (or the personal preference of the game organizer you're playing in).

In general, a weapon that is very light and very stiff is also very maneuverable, and very safe. Some people (and some games/organizations) prefer or mandate heavier weapons for the realism they afford. I'm not making any judgements about either way as a part of my business, I'm just trying to find a simple way to present data for people to make their own decisions.
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#8 User is offline   Dren Ollevres 

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 10:24 AM

View Posthivemind, on Jan 19 2009, 10:02 AM, said:

I disagree with that. A flex of four inches is a lot more acceptable in a 42" weapon than in a 30" weapon.


What I meant was that people can relate to inches a lot more than a flex rating. You can take account for the length yourself. I can go home and take my longsword, put 2 lbs on the end, and compare the drop in inches to your chart and figure out if your weapon is more or less flexible than mine. "14.9" flex rating just means I have to do more calculations, plus measuring on my own, to get the same point of reference.

Though, a set standard might work great for making a cut-off point for 'allowable flex rating' at KoN. Then the FR might mean more for me. You could just as easily have a chart that says the length in inches (in one-inch intervals) and the flex in inches, and save people time. I personally would prefer the inches value for flex simply because of the ease of comparison.
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#9 User is offline   Dren Ollevres 

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 11:13 AM

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Not sure how useful this is, but you get the idea. It basically came up with the same results (using OAL though). Comparing relative lengths, the Barbarian Mace, Barbarian Axe, Roman Trooper Sword, Viking Axe, and the Hammer are the best as far as rigidity goes.
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#10 User is offline   Julie 

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 11:16 AM

Dave, for me, your ratio number makes sense. I am no engineer either, but the ratio with the flex vs. length makes sense to me. I also work with a lot of engineers, and we use these types of numbers all the time (cost/benefit ratios,weighted project scores, etc.). It helps a lot to have these types of numbers to compare weapon to weapon, especially across brands. I think if you post your rationale and procedure on your web site, it will be a good thing for your customers, and Will is right - it might be something that causes other people to link back to you as an authority.
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#11 User is offline   Jenica 

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 11:44 AM

View PostJulie, on Jan 19 2009, 11:16 AM, said:

Dave, for me, your ratio number makes sense. I am no engineer either, but the ratio with the flex vs. length makes sense to me. I also work with a lot of engineers, and we use these types of numbers all the time (cost/benefit ratios,weighted project scores, etc.). It helps a lot to have these types of numbers to compare weapon to weapon, especially across brands. I think if you post your rationale and procedure on your web site, it will be a good thing for your customers, and Will is right - it might be something that causes other people to link back to you as an authority.


Yep. What she said. I think these numbers are particularly useful in the context of "I have Sword A, and it's just the other side of too whippy, so is Sword B more or less flexible than mine?"
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#12 User is online   hivemind 

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 12:51 PM

View PostDren Ollevres, on Jan 19 2009, 10:24 AM, said:

What I meant was that people can relate to inches a lot more than a flex rating. You can take account for the length yourself.

They may be able to relate to inches, rather than a "flex rating" I'm coming up with, but it's not a meaningful relation unless it takes into account the usable length. I would prefer to provide an immediately useful and valid number (even if it requires a little thought to understand) than a number that I feel is misleading, yet easy to understand.

I can probably also give some general direction, words to the effect of "A lower FR generally indicates a better-handling weapon", "Any weapon with a FR of 10 or less will feel very stiff" and "Any weapon with a FR over 15 will feel very whippy", which will help people relate to the numbers better.
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#13 User is online   hivemind 

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 12:56 PM

View PostDren Ollevres, on Jan 19 2009, 10:24 AM, said:

"14.9" flex rating just means I have to do more calculations, plus measuring on my own, to get the same point of reference.

Actually, unless you're making your own weapons, or they're custom made, or bought from some little tiny place in Europe, I will have the numbers for it already on my site - you just need to look them up. For example, I'm pretty sure your new Elven Steel sword is a FD long Chaos sword, right? Here's those:

Forgotten Dreams
Chaos sword long
OAL: 42"
Useful Length: 33.75"
Weight: 8.4 oz
Flex: 4.75"
FR: 14.1
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#14 User is offline   thunderstave 

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 01:40 PM

Dave, what you did here is pretty good thinking. I find it to be a total crapshoot when looking at weapons. What you are doing is really good and if it works will be a tool that would impress me as a customer.

This is going to be long. Please bear with me.

Method:

It would be great for doing static load stuff, like boom arms and beams and stuff. You are comparing the relative rigidity of the weapons under exactly the same load conditions, but what causes a lot of our flex issues is the mass of the weapon itself. I see that you massed the weapons, but I might not be reading it right because I don't see how the mass has anything to do with the weapon's flex rating.

I'm not sure how useful this method is going to be when trying to translate to the real world swinging of these things. I'm thinking you have solved half the problem.

A two-pound weight is a constant that has little to do with the actual flex of a weapon in combat. It does test the static rigidity.

When we test them we are swinging them (pretty hard) to see how much deformation occurs when we force them to change direction rapidly. The weapon's own mass ( x acceleration) is what generates the force that works against the rigidity of the weapon.

Your flex ratings could be identical for two different weapons, but if weapon A masses 2x more than weapon B you will get very different results when you swing them. The heavier weapon is going to flex more. Depending on the spring constant of your weapons, this will be more or less extreme for 2x (2.5x, 3x, etc.).


Factoring in usable length is totally important. Keep that part.


Suggestion:
You have all the information in front of you. This is a quicker, dirtier than ideal method, but it will give an approximation of the useful info you are trying to bring out.

Your "flex * useful length" is right on. That is essentially the Spring Constant of the weapon. Normally Spring constant is measured with a fixed degree of deflection (how far you bend it) and then the force it took to get that far is measured with a spring scale. When you did it you used a constant force of two pounds and measured deflection. (You just did it backwards. Not wrong, since your way is more useful to us in this problem.)

Now we need to find out the mass of the useful part of the weapon and how much it weighs per inch.

Divide the UL by the OAL. This will tell us what percentage of the weapon's length matters when we are looking at weapon flex. It should be less than 1.

Multiply that percentage by the weapon weight. This should give us an approximate weight of the active part of the weapon.
(Wooden handles, counterweights, foam vs. handle materials... these are all going to mess this up a bit. The only way to avoid this kind of quick&dirty solution would be to cut the handles off all the weapons and measure them. This is not cost-effective, even if it will satisfy the pure scientists among us.)

Now that we know how much a weapon weighs per inch and how much it will deflect under a two pound load we can set a relative scale for whippiness that counts in how heavy a weapon is.

Combine the weight of the active portion of the weapons with your flex number (the spring constant) and you can get a Flex Rating that gives springiness and weight factored in together. Do it any way you like. Now we can compare apples to apples.

I'm putting together a spreadsheet for you that uses these calculations. I have it out in paper form right now.
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Posted 19 January 2009 - 01:48 PM

Yeah yeah, that makes more sense. I instinctively knew that the mass came into play, but I didn't explore how to factor it into the number I'm trying to generate.

But, like you said, it'll be less than optimum, because some weapons (for example, A-N) have a lot of weighting in the hilts, while others (Forgotten Dreams, for one) have none.

I had mostly included the weight of the weapons for static comparisons to things like a real sword, a pool cue, etc. Things people can relate to in real life.
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#16 User is offline   thunderstave 

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 01:51 PM

When you get home can you (by hand) compare the Eagle Flex Ninja sword with the Norman sword?

Your chart shows them as being nearly identical and then having a huge difference in flex rating. Do they really "feel" that different?
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#17 User is offline   thunderstave 

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 01:55 PM

View Posthivemind, on Jan 19 2009, 01:48 PM, said:

Yeah yeah, that makes more sense. I instinctively knew that the mass came into play, but I didn't explore how to factor it into the number I'm trying to generate.

But, like you said, it'll be less than optimum, because some weapons (for example, A-N) have a lot of weighting in the hilts, while others (Forgotten Dreams, for one) have none.

I had mostly included the weight of the weapons for static comparisons to things like a real sword, a pool cue, etc. Things people can relate to in real life.


You are totally right about the mass. I'm gonna try to make Excel give me a chart.

To see if it has *any* basis in reality I'd like to see if your results (therefor my results since I am using your method as a base) will be relevant to anything beyond napkin scratchings. Hence my question about the two swords previously.

Do you want me to continue, or do you think it isn't worth getting into? I'm trying to come up with a way to present it in a meaningful way right now.
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Posted 19 January 2009 - 02:27 PM

Sure man, let's make it as informative and accurate as we can. I don't wanna be a snake oil salesman, I want people to be able to trust that what I'm saying is valid info.

And yeah, I don't need to even go feel them again. The Norman Sword feels like a pool noodle, the Ninja Sword somewhat less so. The top five or so weapons on that list I wouldn't even carry - they're that bad.
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#19 User is offline   thunderstave 

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 03:17 PM

If you could use the same system to test any of the weapons that you, I, or Steve has made with our method and cores I'd like to see the numbers.
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Posted 19 January 2009 - 03:34 PM

I have one that I made with a FL505 I can test, sure.
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